D&D 5E (2024) Mearls has some Interesting Ideals about how to fix high level wizards.

I have seen Fighters be mediocre, defined far more by what equipment they use than what class features they have. The class features aren't bad, but they aren't actually defining things. Conversely, I have seen Barbarians who were awesome regardless of what they had or didn't have--and who did not, as far as I could tell, meaningfully "fall off" after level 11. (IIRC that campaign went to 14-ish?)

As with a number of pronouncements you have made regarding the efficacy of various classes in both the short and long term, I simply disagree with your evaluation. Your evaluation makes the Fighter out to be some kind of demigod among classes, nearly unbeatable at everything it does, and my experience is very much the opposite--it can be easily outshone if someone puts in just a little effort. Likewise, your constant Wizard doom-saying is nothing like my experience of the game.

The only way I can see the vast majority of the complaints you raise is if you're playing with people who never do even the tiniest bit of thinking about character effectiveness. A scattershot Wizard, a scattershot Barbarian, a scattershot Ranger? Yeah, they're going to suffer because those classes reward careful consideration to varying degrees--it doesn't require system mastery or optimization, just putting a little forethought into what you're doing and why. Fighter, on the other hand, doesn't really do much of that--a scattershot Fighter will probably do better than nearly any other class because the core is robust.

So...is that the problem here? Are you presuming essentially all players never even think about trying to do better with the tools they have? Again this isn't "optimization", that's trying for being the best you can possibly be. I'm talking about "hmm, magic missile isn't very good damage output...I should probably try chromatic orb." Or "oh hey, Wolf Totem is actually REALLY useful since my party has lots of melee attackers!" That's not optimization, it's just actually caring about effectiveness.


Short-sighted chasing of year-1 sales isn't good. That's the problem here--for both you and WotC. That's precisely what I'm talking about when I mention things being sanded down so perfectly smooth, people slide right in....and slide right back out again.

As I said: Texture matters. Achievement matters. Depth matters. With no texture, there's nothing to grip people, nothing to keep them invested. With no possibility of personal achievement, with no development of mastery and no ability to see how you've gotten better at play, there's no ownership, no personal investment beyond the story of the character, and that story ends when the campaign ends. With no depth, the only thing to explore and uncover is the world itself--and that world ends when the campaign ends, at least in most cases. (I know there are exceptions, but those exceptions are themselves deeply invested players.)

Casuals are a huge source of revenue and absolutely should not be ignored; exactly the opposite, actually, they should be courted. But when you prioritize them to the exclusion of folks who like complexity, you gut the community. You remove one of the most important blocs, people who are deeply invested and proud of it, people who love to engage and speak out. The core of non-casual players may be only a smaller portion, but they form a critical structural component of the community.


If it lasts to 2029, it will have lasted five years. Hence...you literally repeated what I said, I would be shocked if it doesn't make it to mid-2029. I would be surprised if it doesn't make it to 2030. But I would also be (very!) shocked if it makes it to, say, 2032.

I expect internal efforts to make 6e kicking up sometime in 2028--when they can gauge the long-term response to 5.5e. I expect rumors to start circulating in 2029 or 2030, with an announcement following about a year after the rumors start.

Well 1 level fighter dip is great for a lot of builds. 2-5 fairly solid.

Bonus feat thats unique _great.
7 subclass feature. Depends on subclass.

8 feat. 3 feats and 20 whatever you want. Alot of gasses dont go much higher.
9 indomitable. Fairly clutch when you need it.
11. Third attack. Once again unique.

. Theyre beaten by low level barbarians and high level paladins (sorta).

My groups do take a few short rests if times not an issue and use prayer of healing. And have cast prayer of healing as a standard action. Short rest every 1.5 combats on average 2 or 3 per day (thirds via magic usually).

So a fighter evaporating around half an bosses hp 1 round isnt to unusual.

Im 5.5 ive seen.

Champion fighter dual wielding lvl 10 with vex. Elf with elven accuracy.

Sword and board EK 7/8. Shilleagh wisdom based.

Sword and board trident trip build champion. Piercer feat level 4-10ish iirc.

Battlemaster lvl 3/4.

Magic weapons usually +1 or 2, or an extra d4 or d6 damage (frostbeand or a BG3 1d4 type). Often whatever is in official adventures.

Best was Sword and board 8 or 9 champion with vicious trident.

Mid level fighter might get something like this.


Or this


Higher level fighter a frostbrand or something similar. Lvl 12 or 13 a legendary weapon for the final.

Flametongue or vicious or equivalent very rarely handed out.
 
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What do people think aboutt a pre con being a "simple" class.

Kinda like starter set but lvl 10 or whatever and done better. Sorcerer and Warlocks come to mind.
No. Because those classes arent simple.

If you want simple classes, you build them.

  • Simple Warrior
    • Just Attacks or Dodges
    • Gets bonus Attacks with Attack action
    • Can Attack with Dodge
    • Adds half level to Saves and Skills
    • Subclass add more damage or spells
  • Simple Expert
    • Just Attacks, Dashes, or Dodges
    • Gets bonus damage with Attack action
    • Has Expertise
    • Subclass add more damage or spells
  • Simple Priest
    • Just cast Cantrips
    • Gets bonus damage on Cantrips
    • Heal Dice
    • Gives bonus healing when ally spends HD
    • Subclass add more damage, healing, or spells
  • Simple Mage
    • Just cast Cantrips
    • Lots of Cantrips
    • Gets bonus damage on Cantrips
    • Rerolls Cantrip damage
    • Boosted Defensive Cantrips
    • Boosted Utility Cantrips
    • Subclass add more damage, healing, or spells
 

While my ideal is one subclass with four possible choices of focus. 🤷🏽‍♂️

(My 5e hack has sorcerer and wizard as subclasses of a mage class)
Strictly following the 5E paradigm of what subclasses are.
I don't have an Elementalist for my Arcana Evolved 4E Hack system (because it's not an original Arcana Evolved class), but I have other "subclasses". For example, Arcana Evolved Witches, who are quite different, there is a huge difference between an Iron Witch, a Mind Witch or a Sea Witch. In that system, class specialization can contain a much larger chunk of your class abilities. But only if it seems necessary for the theme of the class. The Warmain specializations mostly define role abilities (the class specialization cover the Defender, Leader and Striker roles), with most other abilities shared, but Witchery Manifestations between the Witch types are separated.
But 5E gives a class only a very few ribbons to switch out on specialization usually, and I think it's not enough for the differences Elementalists should have.
 

Well this is just the extra class feats of many pathfinder 1 classes. Or if you take final fantasy d20 every class has class feats: Final Fantasy d20

Or rather how feats worked in general in 3E and 4E.


Especially in 4E classes did had only their most important features in the class in the beginning. And then many class feats to define them further. (Yes there where general feats etc. But if every class gets 10+ feats to decide there would be repetitions so it naturally leads to having class independant feats. Many feats are class dependant or at least power source dependant like divine, primal,martial or arcane).


There are 2 problems with this:

1. Its a higher complexity. Which is something not for everyone

2. People may not read them and decide that all the classesare too samey/boring because they dont have more distinct class features.



Point 2 can be made a bit less worse by naming them different than feats and highlighting them more, but even in 5e for the warlock people kimd of overlook them thats why warlock is sp often beought up as a simple class.
This leads to a "pick your problem" kind of situation.

Basal classes kept simple, no further frills? You've won over the simplicity crowd, but adding complexity can be a huge huge pain and likely loses you the complexity crowd, who tend to be more vocal.
Basal classes kept simple, but texture in the opt-ins? You'll probably lose the simplicity crowd, and the complexity crowd may or may not pick up what you're putting down.
Basal classes complicated, little variation away from that? You've won over the complexity crowd, but you've alienated basically everyone else.
Basal classes complicated, but simpler options exist? You may or may not win over the complex crowd, and even if the simple options are there, it's unlikely the people who want them will bother hunting. They're just out.

None of these are super desirable. Hence, we cannot have a one-size-fits-all solution. Trying to make every class complicated doesn't work (3e, and to an extent 4e). Trying to make every class simple works for a bit, but it wears thin long-term (5e, arguably 1e, hence why multiple new classes got made!). You want something actually stable...you have to offer a spectrum of options. Some complicated, some simple. Some simple but with opt-in complexity, some complex but with the ability to opt out. Etc. Yes, that is harder to balance than trying to make them all about the same amount of complexity, but not that much harder. There are much, much higher hurdles like "keeping Wizards balanced without pissing off the Wizard fanboys who want Wizards to be the best at whatever they choose to do".
 



And my response is mostly, why is it everything always becomes spells? It seems to me that 5e has completely lost the art of designing (sub)classes around actual class features, and has decided spells are what make nearly all (sub)classes what they are. I dislike this intensely.
you have a point, but as far as themed casters go (subclass or otherwise), i would prefer if there was at least a decent baseline selection of thematic spells to exist before they create a subclass around that theme, because then the class features can actually build off and interact with those spells.

not to mention, more often than not, i don't think thematic features can support a themed subclass by themselves if the rest of the class can't provide the juice to back up the theme, how many of us have tried to create a (non-fire) draconic sorcerer and found there's not even enough proper spells of your element in your list to count on one hand? perhaps a slight exaggeration, but it doesn't feel good when my black dragon acid sorcerer is relying on fire and cold damage to fill out the holes in their offence, (sure i could be eating sorcerer points on transmute spell but i shouldn't have to be doing that and other classes don't get that luxury).
 


you have a point, but as far as themed casters go (subclass or otherwise), i would prefer if there was at least a decent baseline selection of thematic spells to exist before they create a subclass around that theme, because then the class features can actually build off and interact with those spells.

not to mention, more often than not, i don't think thematic features can support a themed subclass by themselves if the rest of the class can't provide the juice to back up the theme, how many of us have tried to create a (non-fire) draconic sorcerer and found there's not even enough proper spells of your element in your list to count on one hand? perhaps a slight exaggeration, but it doesn't feel good when my black dragon acid sorcerer is relying on fire and cold damage to fill out the holes in their offence, (sure i could be eating sorcerer points on transmute spell but i shouldn't have to be doing that and other classes don't get that luxury).
I recently (this week!) made a list of spells organized by theme to use for PCs and NPC creation. I couldn't find anything on the DM's Guild, so it's posted there as PWYW. I didn't put counts in, but here's a quick look at stuff you could build a character around.

Acid: 6
Antimagic: 9
Beast/Vermin: 20+
Blades & projectiles: 14
Celestial: 12
Cold: 14
Darkness: 7
Draconic: 4
Earth: 23 (this surprised me; not all are damaging, but you could do something with it)
Far Realms: 8
Fear: 6
Fiendish: 10
Fire: 29
Force: 14
Lightning: 7 (sad trombone)
Multi/choose your element: 13, +1 in 5.24. This is what has to do all the hard work for acid and lightning builds.
Necrotic: 17
Plant: 15, although about half of them aren't damaging.
Poison+disease: 10
Psychic: 16
Radiant: 19, +4 in 5.24 because WOTC wants radiant to be the most popular element?
Storm:Weather: 14, +1 in 5.24
Thunder: 8, +1 in 5.24
Undeath: 9
Water: 14, yes Water is better supported than lightning or acid or thunder.
Wind: 15 ( included Wall of Sand in this as well as earth).
 

I recently (this week!) made a list of spells organized by theme to use for PCs and NPC creation. I couldn't find anything on the DM's Guild, so it's posted there as PWYW. I didn't put counts in, but here's a quick look at stuff you could build a character around.

Acid: 6
Antimagic: 9
Beast/Vermin: 20+
Blades & projectiles: 14
Celestial: 12
Cold: 14
Darkness: 7
Draconic: 4
Earth: 23 (this surprised me; not all are damaging, but you could do something with it)
Far Realms: 8
Fear: 6
Fiendish: 10
Fire: 29
Force: 14
Lightning: 7 (sad trombone)
Multi/choose your element: 13, +1 in 5.24. This is what has to do all the hard work for acid and lightning builds.
Necrotic: 17
Plant: 15, although about half of them aren't damaging.
Poison+disease: 10
Psychic: 16
Radiant: 19, +4 in 5.24 because WOTC wants radiant to be the most popular element?
Storm:Weather: 14, +1 in 5.24
Thunder: 8, +1 in 5.24
Undeath: 9
Water: 14, yes Water is better supported than lightning or acid or thunder.
Wind: 15 ( included Wall of Sand in this as well as earth).
neat! that's more than i'd suspect for some of them.
 

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