Mearls On D&D's Design Premises/Goals

First of all, thanks Morrus for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes. That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to...

First of all, thanks [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes.

That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to fans of the other, but those differences do matter. There are ways in which I like the prescriptive elements of 3.x era games (I like set skill difficulty lists, for example) but I tend to run by the seat of my pants and the effects of my beer, so a fast and loose and forgiving version like 5E really enables me running a game the way I like to.
 

KenNYC

Explorer
Heh, that would do it!

Practically speaking, though, level drain and the like have a way of totally ruining the campaign. In many respects I think it's worse than a TPK.


Level drain is no fun but I love it as a mechanic because the fact that it exists means you should make sure as a player it never happens to you. It just is so great in distinguishing the undead from everything else, and really, the undead shouldn't be just another monster with just another attack. It's a freaking vampire, you better be afraid, right?

As it is now, all the undead do is make you need to take a nap for a night and then you are good as new nice and spiffy. With level drain lets see how fast the 9th level fighter wants to mix it up with a wight or wraith, or what the party does when a mummy or vampire come calling. Suddenly it's no longer stats, math, and we know we can win this. Yes, you can win this but at what cost? It really heightens the tension and as a side bonus it really brings the cleric class to the fore. With the undead, all the fighters, barbarians, rogues with the 5 dice of sneak damage and whatever else all have to hide behind the cleric.

It also shouldn't wreck a campaign. Yes it is frustrating and sucks, but your character is still your character and if the campaign has an interesting storyline the level shouldn't matter as much--especially in 5e where every time you turn around someone is leveling up. The last 5e campaign I played in I think I was 4th level after seven sessions. If I got zapped back to third what difference would it make really? Next week I will be 4th again probably, or the week after that.
 

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pemerton

Legend
I tend to do less prep as possible. Referring to my previous post on "information sharing at the table", and applying to 4e SkChallenge, I can see how is completely one-sided on the Gm shoulders, meaning a lot of prep, as you say: both mechanically and fictionally.
Meaning: deciding when & where to have the challenge, possible outcomes, numbers of successes needed, DC, skills involved, and so on.
Not only this "one-sided info" burdening the Gm homework (YMMV), but also limiting the surprise factor in-game, having pre-planned the most of it (again, YMMV and IMHO).
A lighter, less crunchy approach to Skill Challenges, might also provide a frame to improvise them on the fly?
Thus sharing more evenly the "information" among players, in real time, and rapidly agreeing at the table about the crunchy bits and the situation in fiction, before going to roll.
I don't think you're right about skill challenges - they don't require prep at all, because the level of the challenge is given (= PC level), the GM can just set the complexity on the fly (depending on how big a deal you want it to be paced on in-fiction plus pacing concerns) and then you can get on with it.

But 4e's combat system is different. Improvisation is perfectly feasible if the creatures you need are already statted up in a Monster Manual or similar. But if you want to do something bespoke, you have to write up the creature/NPC in advance. And because the system loves terrain in its combat, it can also be helpful to draw up maps in advance.
 

pemerton

Legend
With level drain lets see how fast the 9th level fighter wants to mix it up with a wight or wraith, or what the party does when a mummy or vampire come calling.
Not to be too pedantic, but traditionally a mummy inflicts mummy rot (a magical wasting curse/disease that impedes healing and eventually kills the victim) rather than level drain.
 

Numidius

Adventurer
Now that's what I call serious thinking about encounter design in a RPG!

I want to elaborate on it a bit. Compelling fictional hooks aren't trivial to come up with. In my experience (reading D&D modules, and modules for other systems too; reading posts on these boards; what I've seen from other GMs; etc) these are often done in terms of MacGuffins that the players are expected to collect/identify and then deploy - the Sunsword vs Straad would be a well-known example. Another common variation is the gate/portal that the "big bad" has to be forced through by the PCs. But this sort of thing can just re-establish the "control of your character" issue at a higher level, by setting up steps that have to be taken to resolve the encounter. Everything becomes a puzzle with a single (or a small set of) pre-established solution(s).

I think for fictional hooks to permit, and even better invite, open-ended play we need reliable ways of setting difficulties for various sorts of interaction with the fiction, of establishing balanced consequences of various choices, etc. (It can be done through unmediated adjudication of the fiction, but I think this always in danger of collapsing into sheer player persuasion/GM fiat - I felt the pressure of this in my Classic Traveller game when the PCs got taken as prisoners on board an enemy starship and the players used that opportunity to stage a hijacking (taking advantage of their numbers being about twice what the NPCs were expecting, having taken on some unknown-to-the-NPC recruits). The outcome wasn't sheer GM fiat, but it had strong elements of it, because Classic Traveller doesn't have a conflict resolution mechanic for this particular sort of scenario. I tried to use Burning Wheel-style framing and adjudication of the discrete checks in the process to manage it; and frankly, even in BW this sort of scenario is not easy to handle in a fiat-free way.)

I think at least one edition of D&D obviously provided such reliable ways. Marvel Heroic RP/Cortex+ Heroic does likewise.
Again, I propose it being a matter of "information".
The wargame origin of D&D assumes a default binary opposition of fronts, Us vs Them.
Which is fine, and I believe it works better with Hidden Information for the players' side, at least during combat and initial exploration of an area/scenario (I recently played Sekigahara, a two players light wargame with hidden info, and enjoyed this aspect, but also started the Sword&Sorcery co-op boardgame campaign in which the info about the ongoing scenario is necessarily mostly openly displayed).
Back to the roleplay, in particular outside combat&initial exploration, I think it could be more satisfactory for both Gm and players, when the information is not hidden and the opposition is not binary: having more factions involved, of course some hooks for the PCs, something at stakes fictionally valuable for everyone involved (not just a McGuffin).
Not an easy task, for sure, but starting to spread the info more openly and freely from the gm side, leads to the opportunity of meaningful choices on the player' side, so They provide more new "info" in return.
As many game designers suggested: picturing a Triangle like situation (npc-pc-monster/npc) to start with, and let the outcomes occurr in a more spontaneous way.
 

Numidius

Adventurer
I don't think you're right about skill challenges - they don't require prep at all, because the level of the challenge is given (= PC level), the GM can just set the complexity on the fly (depending on how big a deal you want it to be paced on in-fiction plus pacing concerns) and then you can get on with it.

But 4e's combat system is different. Improvisation is perfectly feasible if the creatures you need are already statted up in a Monster Manual or similar. But if you want to do something bespoke, you have to write up the creature/NPC in advance. And because the system loves terrain in its combat, it can also be helpful to draw up maps in advance.
Right, I see. Y'know, I'm a bit concerned about prep work ;)
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
4e is a version of this: in combat, for instance, PC and opponent bases scale at basically the same rate, and so the % chance remains largely the same through the levels; but creatures that are inferior per the fiction relative to the PC tier are framed as minions, and hence die on a hit; or get bundled up as a swarm, and hence get taken down in swathes.

4e non-combat has less tight maths, which can produce some of the issues @Jay Verkuilen has identified (the big offender in my game is the +6 to all knowledge skills that a Sage of Ages gets). But the orientation of the game is still towards what you describe - level-appropriate DCs that try to establish roughly consistent chances of success, with the differences of tier being expressed in the fiction rather than the mechanics. <...> Again, 4e can be considered a version of this (and literally is a version of this if you strip out the level adjustments for creatures and the stat gain and enhancement bonuses for PCs).

In many respects 5E tried to keep this logic in the form of bounded accuracy by making level adjustments on success down. So unlike 4E where there was a fairly relentless level-based scaling, 5E tries to keep large degrees of scaling to hit points and class features, and keep most bonuses within a smaller operating range overall.

However, the areas I'm talking about---save DCs for some monsters and, especially, skill bonuses for some characters---they just blew it. We haven't talked about it much in this thread, but IMO the skill system has more problems than saves, which I think could be handled by keeping most save DCs below 20 and just making some of the boss monsters tougher in other ways than cranking up save DCs, although the fact that the gap between strong saves and weak saves gets extremely wide even by level 10 is a bit of a problem.

Expertise itself is fine if you use it to become good at a skill you're ordinarily not supposed to be. For example, the Wisdom 10 Rogue who uses Expertise to rock out Perception is not going to be too crazy. The final ability will be on par with other characters who are just proficient in an ordinary way and have a strong stat. However, when Expertise is used to, say, boost Thieves' Tools, essentially no lock or trap is much of a barrier to that character without heavy contrivance. Nor is it often perceived as worth it for any other character to pursue having proficiency in that. Yes I could triple lock everything and make sure every encounter involving a lock has some kind of countdown timer that means the rogue is always under time pressure or present dilemmas that push someone else to have to make those rolls... or I could take the path of least resistance and DC creep. I'd simply be better off without doing that and making Expertise cool some other way.

If you want a really simple fix, just making Expertise grant Advantage instead of doubling the proficiency bonus would rein in the numbers. It would be undeniably useful and clearly make the character more effective than normal due to making a low roll less likely. There may be other ways to make use of this, too. If more skill checks were like skill challenges, i.e. requiring a few successes to fully complete, the character rolling with Advantage could tally up successes on both dice, meaning that tasks could be accomplished more quickly.

Example:Using just Expertise = Advantage here. Louvin Lightfinger, thief extraordinaire, has Expertise with Thieves Tools. He's picking a lock in the workshop of Gnimbly Gnob the Gnomish jeweler. He has a bonus of +7 (18 Dex, proficiency of +3). The fairly complex lock has a DC of 15 and requires 3 successes to pick and a failure represents the lock being stuck permanently. He rolls 18 and 18 on the first two dice, a success. This takes a minute. The next minute he rolls a 2 and 11. He breathes a sigh of relief that he's rolling two dice and can ignore that 2....

I'm sure there are holes in this---I mean I just thought of it at the moment so it'd need testing and calibration---but it represents Expertise not as a quantitative difference simply by making the numbers higher (and thus tempting the DM into DC creep to boost up perceived challenge) but by making a more qualitative difference. Here Expertise means you're much more reliable than someone with just ordinary proficiency. The big thing is that Advantage has relatively limited impact in that it does not allow you to roll above what you could ordinarily accomplish, while still being undeniably beneficial.


For 4e to work as I've described the GM has to use the level mechanics properly when doing the mechanical side of encounter-framing, and also has to pay attention to the fiction that is implicit in that mechanical framing given the tier of the PCs. I personally didn't find that very challenging (the guidelines are clear and the maths transparent and robust), but I think that need for the GM to think about encounter-framing in mechanical as well as in-fiction terms was quite unpopular.

As I've said many times, 4E had many good ideas. I think some of them ended up being taken too far. For instance, it was too relentlessly game balanced for my taste. I felt when I ran it, especially, the constant and heavy hand of the designer, which I did not like. I enjoyed playing 4E much more than running it, which I found an exercise in frustration as I am not the sort of person who adapts myself to someone else's vision. It also seemed to bring out the rules lawyer in players, even ones who'd not been especially rules lawyer-y before.

But all that aside, 4E had a number of good ideas and WotC kept a number of them in 5E, though in some cases I'm not sure they did it as well as they could in some spots.
 
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Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
Level drain is no fun but I love it as a mechanic because the fact that it exists means you should make sure as a player it never happens to you. It just is so great in distinguishing the undead from everything else, and really, the undead shouldn't be just another monster with just another attack. It's a freaking vampire, you better be afraid, right?

Well the charm ability (as badly and ambiguously worded as it is) works pretty well for Lord Blah, but yeah, you're certainly right that undead aren't nearly as fear-inducing as they had been, although the hit point maximum drain does create issues if you're not able to long rest. IMO a lot of it is the rest mechanic: A good night's sleep and it's all better! In Adventures in Middle Earth, long rests are much rarer and you really value your hit dice. So if undead started draining those and long rests were uncommon... look out!


It also shouldn't wreck a campaign. Yes it is frustrating and sucks, but your character is still your character and if the campaign has an interesting storyline the level shouldn't matter as much

IMO the general reaction I would expect from my players, who I think of as generally being pretty mature plus/minus on some, to massive level drain or maiming would not be positive. I doubt I'd react too well, either, just being honest, although there might be ways of handling it.


--especially in 5e where every time you turn around someone is leveling up. The last 5e campaign I played in I think I was 4th level after seven sessions. If I got zapped back to third what difference would it make really? Next week I will be 4th again probably, or the week after that.

That pace of leaving hasn't been my experience in 5E, but I long ago (i.e., many editions) abandoned the XP tally system for a more milestone paced leveling. But if you look at levels 1-3, advancement is quite quick there but slows down markedly after that. So I wouldn't generalize from a short low-level campaign.
 

Numidius

Adventurer
[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]
I read your Underdark report linked above.
Man...
Such a vivid, intense interaction 'tween the party, enemies, ambience/terrain, and rules/fiction.
Now I'm having an idea 4e potential.
I'd say my games are gonzo fantasy (as you used this term days ago in a reply), yours are a full-on hell of a ride.

I totally second the positive influence of Claremont's narrative.
Heck I grew up with his 13 (maybe more?) years long management of the X-men.
I'd fairly say: unrivalled storytelling.
Speaking of level drain, how about Storm's story arc? ;) (Paul Smith penciler? The duel vs Cyclops for leadership...)
 

S'mon

Legend
Skill checks - I really don't want the expert-lockpick PC to be unable to pick locks! Locks open up game content! In fact I lean towards PCs being able to pretty much always succed in their areas of expertise, just as they almost always win combat.
 

pemerton

Legend
when Expertise is used to, say, boost Thieves' Tools, essentially no lock or trap is much of a barrier to that character without heavy contrivance. Nor is it often perceived as worth it for any other character to pursue having proficiency in that.
How big a problem is this? If the 10th+ level thief can bypass all ordinary locks and traps, is the game going to break?

To me it looks like putting the opening of locks into the same category as the ritual magic of a spell-caster of similar level. Is there an aspect to it that I've missed? Or am I getting the maths wrong?

I felt when I ran it, especially, the constant and heavy hand of the designer

<snip>

I am not the sort of person who adapts myself to someone else's vision.
I don't fully get this, except as a comment that you didn't like the design. I look at 5e and see the "heavy hand of the designers" ie the system won't balance without a fairly action-packed "adventuring day". Which is one of the reasons I'm not very enthusiastic about it.
 

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