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Mearls On D&D's Design Premises/Goals

First of all, thanks [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes.

That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to fans of the other, but those differences do matter. There are ways in which I like the prescriptive elements of 3.x era games (I like set skill difficulty lists, for example) but I tend to run by the seat of my pants and the effects of my beer, so a fast and loose and forgiving version like 5E really enables me running a game the way I like to.
 

Didn't he also stress that they don't want to make a game that encourages toxic behaviour? By implication he sees that to some extent as a design choice, which is interesting.

True. I think it may be more to the point is that they realize they can't possibly fix toxic behavior.

Just like they can never please everyone, as this thread shows.
 

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Um, no. This is the rule.

"The DM can decide the order if the tie is between a monster and a player character." This rule clearly states the DM picks the winner, so you are wrong about that.

If there were no rule for that, the DM would still decide how to resolve that tie, going with the monster or the character.
No. Without the explicit exception in initiative the normal rules for ability checks would apply because initiative is an ability check.

The rule they added to initiative solves ties for initiative and means you dont use the ability check tie rule.

As the designers say specific trumps general.

I can use Guidance on my dex check for initiative for instance because its an ability check.
 

If the answer is just because it's fun to imagine it - ie the expenditure is colour and nothing more - then maybe the book could come out and say so: the goal of playing a game in which you must succeed at wargame-like challenges to have your PC collect gold from a dungeon is to then imagine your PC spending that gold on whatever you want to.

Why in the world would I want the game book to tell me the "goals" of my game?

Besides, it changes from campaign to campaign, sometimes session to session.
 

But putting that to one side, you can write what you're describing into a rulebook as well: eg "You can spend the money your PC has taken out of the dungeon on various social projects, which your GM might then have regard to in setting the DC for interactions with the NPCs who benefit from those projects, or perhaps in deciding that no check is required to have them help you."

This line is advice...and would be okay.
 

The "you" in my post was being used in the impersonal sense (ie one doesn't answer the question of what money is for in the context of gameplay by producing a mediaeval price guide, which in any event the game includes.) A price list isn't advice on gameplay.

It's not? If the question is how can characters use their gold, a list of items with prices certainly seems to be advice on exactly that. It's limited advice, and depending on the list, may not be as broad as many would like, but it does address the concern to some extent.

But I think that this is one of the areas that touches upon what Mearls said. Here are the relevant bits below:
3.5 and 4 were very much driven by an anxiety about controlling the experience of the game, leaving as little as possible to chance. They aimed for consistency of play from campaign to campaign, and table to table. The fear was that an obnoxious player or DM would ruin the game, and that would drive people away from it. The thinking was that if we made things as procedural as possible, people would just follow the rules and have fun regardless of who they played with.

The downside to this approach is that the rules became comprehensive to a fault. The game’s rules bloated, as they sought to resolve many if not all questions that arise in play with the game text.

The intended design goal of 5E goes against the above. They don't want rules for everything. They don't want every group to play the game the same way. I think this is a conscious decision on their part.

With 5th, we assumed that the DM was there to have a good time, put on an engaging performance, and keep the group interested, excited, and happy. It’s a huge change, because we no longer expect you to turn to the book for an answer. We expect the DM to do that.

They expect the DM to have input on the game and how it works. And I think this also applies to the players, by implication. Come up with an idea...."Hey I bought some fancy clothes...can I gain advantage when I try to persuade the duke to help us?" and bring it to your DM rather then to the rule book.

This is the design choice they made. And this is what I like.

Could they have come up with rules for wardrobe and the impact it has on Persuasion or other social checks? Sure. Could they have come up with rules for how to build strongholds? Sure.

But they realize the importance of these things will vary from table to table. So they've left such things up to a specific group to decide.


You are correct that I can import advice on gameplay from other games into 5e - but that's not a super-strong defence of 5e's design, I don't think, especially as some advice will probably contradict how 5e is meant to play.

This is why I don't think there will be any convincing you. I think it's a key aspect to the design. Not feeling the need to spend time and space around a bunch of areas of the game whose importance will vary drastically from game to game and committing a bunch of mechanics to those areas ahead of time. Especially not when rather than spend that time and effort ahead of time, the player and DM can spend two minutes at the table and come up with something just as useful.

It seems to me based on your comments here, and in other conversations, that you want all mechanics to be determined ahead of time so that the players and DM have this established understanding of exactly what's possible and what works and how ahead of time. There's no judgment needed on the DM's part.

I actually like there to be such judgment. I don't see relying on the judgment of participants in the game to help make decisions about how to play to be lazy design. In fact, I consider it one of 5E's strongest elements.

This doesn't speak to my point, which is what is the gameplay purpose of imagining my PC spending money on those things?

If the answer is just because it's fun to imagine it - ie the expenditure is colour and nothing more - then maybe the book could come out and say so: the goal of playing a game in which you must succeed at wargame-like challenges to have your PC collect gold from a dungeon is to then imagine your PC spending that gold on whatever you want to.

It doesn't speak to your point because the answer will likely be different for everyone.

My game is not exactly the style you assume above, but my players' characters have indeed accumulated some money through play. They've used that money for a variety of things....most of which are more narrative than mechanical. They've established a trading company and they've needed funds for political purposes. There is upkeep involved in that, and a whole bevy of NPCs to pay for, and further investments related to the busines. One PC used the funds to establish a temple. Another used money to help in his search for his family. There has been a bit of magic item purchasing, as well, but not on a large scale.

For others, a lot of this would be boring and unnecessary. I don't think that the designers needed to provide all this to me ahead of time. My players and I can do that.

The same can be said of a Diablo-esque dungeoncrawl where the accumulation of wealth serves only to get better items, so that you can penetrate further into the dungeon, so that you can get more money, so you can get better items....and so on. For players of a game where this is the desired approach, how difficult is it to come up with a price guide for magic items?


So I don't think the fact that the designers know that different people will play differently, and consider some areas of the game more important than others, is a blindspot on their part. I think they're very aware of this, and considered it strongly in their approach. I think they came to the specific design decisions they came to with this in mind, in service of this design approach.
 

I think your mistaken your saying designing good narrative and strategy are in ANY WAY mutually exclusive. They can ignore each other or support each other.

That just isn't true. There needs to be a goal that takes priority. Go back to what Mearls said that started this thread.

"In terms of players, we focus much more on narrative and identity, rather than specific, mechanical advantages. Who you are is more important than what you do, to the point that your who determines your what. In broad terms - and based on what we can observe of the community from a variety of measures - we went from a community that focused on mechanics and expertise, to one focused on socializing and story telling. Mechanical expertise is an element of the game, but no longer the sole focus. Ideally, it’s a balanced part of all the other motivators. If balanaced correctly, every has their fun. Enjoyment isn’t zero sum."

Who determines what, not what determines who.

Some people pick out mechanics and then create identity and narrative to support those mechanics.

The designers decided to support those and focus on a community who wants to pick out identity and narrative and then have mechanics that support that. It is an important distinction.

Mearls then goes on to say that it is nice if the people who prioritize mechanics can get to play too of course. The thrust though is that the player base has shifted, which makes sense as there are millions of new players. We're at peak D&D. The 3e and 4e players are a very small minority now.

Do you see the distinction? One must come first in design. A common attitude I see among "optimizers" is the idea that identity and narrative are easily mutable. Create your "build" and then find a way to justify it with theme after. The game is no longer designed with that approach in mind.

Like it or not, that is the reality.

Actually it is....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cak3ojSuJaM at the 13:21 mark they talk about how it shocked everyone because its now the 3rd most played class in D&D Beyond beating all predictions and and the wizard class in third, the cleric in 4th.

Right, and the middle ones are all very close so it makes sense for them to go back and forth. Warlock is not the most popular. The most popular by a wide margin are Fighter and Rogue. Warlock is still in the middle, a little higher than I would have thought at 3rd but still not close to Fighter and Rogue.

Your argument was that complicated classes with a lot of options are the most popular. I don't think that applies to Fighter and Rogue.
 

They expect the DM to have input on the game and how it works. And I think this also applies to the players, by implication. Come up with an idea...."Hey I bought some fancy clothes...can I gain advantage when I try to persuade the duke to help us?" and bring it to your DM rather then to the rule book.

Agreed

Mike Mornard, one of the early players, talked about that kind of play. That they just tried what they thought up, and the GM would adjudicate how well it worked. The classic "cover in mud, get bees angry, lead other monsters to the bees, and get the stuff while they fight" was an example of not using combat to achieve goals. When there are rules for everything (3rd and 4th) then you get constrained on what you can do by looking at character sheet. In a more freewheeling game, you just think up stuff your character would do, and the GM tells you what roll to attempt to do it.

I think that "look up from your character sheet" is an intent of the game.

I am one of those that played 3.x/PF for years, and moved to 5E. And I do want some extra mechanical stuff - so I have books by 3rd parties (Midgard, Scarred Lands and In5der, stuff from Dungeon Masters Guild, and other sources). But those are optional - I love the way the core game is build and plays. I wouldn't want WotC to change how it is doing things - just like during the d20 boom WotC expected a LOT of adventures from 3rd party - we can use that resource for extra mechanical trinkets.
 

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