Mearls On D&D's Design Premises/Goals

First of all, thanks Morrus for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes. That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to...

First of all, thanks [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes.

That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to fans of the other, but those differences do matter. There are ways in which I like the prescriptive elements of 3.x era games (I like set skill difficulty lists, for example) but I tend to run by the seat of my pants and the effects of my beer, so a fast and loose and forgiving version like 5E really enables me running a game the way I like to.
 


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clearstream

(He, Him)
Why would the result of an arm wrestle between me and a Storm Giant be in doubt?
This is a feature of bounded accuracy that some players have picked up on: it produces a modifier range that paints characters as capable of heroic feats - such as out arm-wrestling a Storm Giant. An egregious failing in a game mechanic can point to mistaken interpretation, as the designers might be expected to have fixed anything obvious. But this isn't an egregious failing. Think of Beowulf wrestling and ripping the arm off Grendel, a monstrous creature of giant-strength that no other man could match, directly descended from Cain. It's just the rules working as written.

Two examples -

  • Say we have a level 1 character, Strength 11, no Athletics. Their modifiers are +0 vs +14. The giant wins in roughly 24 out of 25 attempts. Or with Athletics, their modifiers are +2 vs +14. The giant wins roughly 23 out of 25 attempts.
  • Or say instead we have the sort of higher-level hero capable of arm-wrestling a Storm Giant and odds-on winning: the question for each DM is - do they want that in their campaign? Some do, some don't. It's in the scope of heroic fantasy to happen, I think.
A DM who dislikes that has a couple of good options. One is to rule that arm-wrestling is a form of Grapple. For me that kills a bit of fun, so I might instead say that a first win is needed to start a push or resist being pushed, bringing arms back to vertical, and a second win is needed from a pushed position, to press the arm to the table. A contest in multiple parts is often a good way to create tension. Especially if there are chances to raise the stakes in each position. (Giant, allows the character to push and makes a Deception check, "I think I still have a chance - what say we double our wager?")
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
It's a special case. You can't just allow everyone to go whenever as that breaks combat and makes combat unplayable, so an ability check is necessary. Specific beats general.

As @pemerton has already pointed out, initiative doesn’t have to work the way it does in 5E. You could have all the action in a round resolve simultaneously, or use side initiative. Another suggestion I’ve seen made on these boards is to forego rolling initiative at the beginning of combat, waiting until conflicts in timing arise in the course of events and resolving each of those conflicts with an opposed DEX check. Clearly, turn-based initiative is a deliberate design choice in 5E, not a necessary one.

Also, the way the game has chosen to keep each character’s turn separate is to call into question the certainty of when each character’s turn will happen. It resolves that uncertainty with a DEX check, which measures a character’s ability to move and act quickly and is compared with the other results to establish a ranking. None of this is necessary for turn-based initiative. Each player could make an unmodified roll or draw straws if the goal is only to establish a turn order. The choice of a DEX check implies that the participants are attempting to move and act quickly and that they may fail to do so. Saying that it's a special case or that it's necessary doesn't explain that away.

I have. I was a loner in junior high and high school, but I fought back against bullies so I got into multiple fights a year. Had I been in school in the modern era, I'd probably have been arrested and expelled due to stupid changes in how they treat kids. I've been in enough fights to know that you are just trying to win the fight, not see if you can go first in the round.

I doubt you were fighting in rounds. Seriously, though, I don't see why "trying to win" doesn't entail trying to strike the first blow. Just letting your opponent hit you first seems like a good way to get knocked out.

That's wrong, though. An arm wrestling match is direct opposition. A Jeopardy question is direct opposition. Only one can get it right. Rolling initiative to see when in the round you can act isn't in direct opposition to anyone. You are not trying to stop them acting with the initiative roll.

You're trying to move and/or act before they do. They are trying to do the same. Those two efforts are in direct opposition to each other. Only one can succeed in being first. No one is claiming you're trying to stop them from acting at all. That would require incapacitating them in some way, which I think is beyond what initiative is meant to decide.

Specific beats general. Combat requires a mechanic to see in what order those who are automatically successful at being able to take an action can take that action.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Combat requires". There are any number of ways a combat system can organize the action. If the intent of the initiative phase is only to impose an order of resolution then why not flip a coin? Why use a DEX check at all?

There isn't a specific rule, though, when it comes to DM vs. player ties. The rule given is identical to what would happen if no rule existed. The DM would decide. It's a non-rule rule.

The DM could decide both turns resolve simultaneously, but the rule is clearly designed to avoid that situation.
 
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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
If the only options are win or lose, and placing is of no interest, then a DM could call for a Contest and that can work out fine. If placing is of interest, the actual rolls become useful. One of the key things about a Contest is a binary outcome.

Is there a reason we can't consider a footrace between 5 people as a series of binary outcomes? There are 10 unique binary outcomes that can be put together to determine the placings of the entire race.

Honestly, the whole issue of a race between multiple people (like initiative) not being a contest is pretty alien to me.
 

Ristamar

Adventurer
I'd guess the role of initiative in surprise situations is indicative of why it is not considered a traditional contest of "who acts faster." You can "win" with a higher number and still not be able to act faster than your opponent.

Also, when another group enters an existing combat and rolls initiative to slot in the turn order, it's not so much a contest as it is a matter of abstracted timing.
 
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clearstream

(He, Him)
Is there a reason we can't consider a footrace between 5 people as a series of binary outcomes? There are 10 unique binary outcomes that can be put together to determine the placings of the entire race.
It's much more than 10 outcomes! Say there are 5 people, we need a contest between each, first, and then... the pain begins...

Say this is what happens

A beats B
A beats C
A loses to D
A loses to E

Seems like A is in the middle of the pack, but...

D loses to C
E loses to B

No idea where this is going, but now we need to resolve... everyone against everyone...

A gets 4 wins
B gets 4, different, wins...

Clearly we need another roll, A versus B, to settle that tie...

Or, and I really want to stress this point, each character can roll a single time, but not for, mechanically, a Contest.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
Is there a reason we can't consider a footrace between 5 people as a series of binary outcomes? There are 10 unique binary outcomes that can be put together to determine the placings of the entire race.

Honestly, the whole issue of a race between multiple people (like initiative) not being a contest is pretty alien to me.
Drawing your attention to my post above, I'm sure you can see there are more than 25 unique outcomes, counting draws.

1. A, B, C, D, E
2. A, C, D, E, B
3. A, D, E, B, C
...
26. A=B, C, D, E

Even not counting draws, it's 25 outcomes. Counting draws I am not sure, but quite a lot more. The essence of the problem is that A might beat B, but lose to C, who B then beats... plus draws...
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I always kinda chuckle when I see the "4e is a boardgame" thing trotted out. Considering that we had what, six, seven years of D&D Miniatures, the game, which was the 3e combat system, virtually verbatim, played out as a tabletop wargame. To the point where DDM material (like the Marshall) was actually compatible with the 3e ruleset.

If you want to play any version of D&D as a boardgame, you can. It's not like it's hard. 4e is no different than any other edition in this.

The thing is, six years after 4E went out of print, I can still buy the D&D Adventure games in Barnes & Noble around the corner.

4E itself had skills, and more opportunities for role-playing: but that part didn't play any different in practice than 3.x or 5E in my experience. The parts that did play differently are actively being sold in a board game.

I don't think a 5E miniatures combat board game would be as successful, qua board game in that market. That's interesting, is all.
 

So why do those with higher DEX tend to go earlier? They're too twitchy to help themselves?

A persons body often react before the person does.

If you keep in mind that a whole round happens in the window of 6 seconds and everyone is acting all at once, then the difference between initiative 1 is as small as taking a breath, or blinking before you act, while initiative 20 just acts.

Why they attached DEX to Initiative is a whole other issue. Lots of people have made threads about making it INT, or Wis, and they make good, valid points for why. I've also seen people say that it shouldn't be attached to any stat or mod and just make it a straight D20 roll to better represent the random chaos of combat, and that sounds fine with me too.

I think WotC in part did it because of the Rogue Assassin. The Rogue is DEX SAD, and the Assassins main feature is coupled to Initiative.

And I think they wanted to take advantage of the Initiative Roll as an opportunity to add the illusion of speed in combat
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Why would the result of an arm wrestle between me and a Storm Giant be in doubt?

It wouldn't be, which is why DMs are allowed to decide not to go with a roll. Remember, ability checks are only rolled when the outcome is in doubt, and that includes contests. You are free to declare that someone with a 15 automatically beats a person with a 14. That doesn't alter the fact that it's a directly opposed contest whether you roll or not.
 

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