D&D 5E Mearls on other settings

[robus]

Here's how it could have been handled more tactfully. Don't have it start in the Realms, offer some suggestions for good thematic choices when when making characters and then in an appendix or side bar or whatever suggest how you can connect it to the Realms if you must.

It was the Realms-first beginning that stuck in my craw at least.

 

[Demetrios1453]

By basically allowing any FR-based character to transfer over ad thus bring all their baggage?

Yes it can be dealt with, but I guess it just struck people as being careless.

Note: I've never played the original Ravenloft and even I thought it a bad decision

But the Mists bringing in characters from other settings has been one of the bases of the setting since... well, since the origin of the full setting in 1990 boxed set! This is the setting that pulled Lord Soth from Dragonlance for its own use, for goodness sake! So bringing them in from the Forgotten Realms is hardly a bug, it's a feature, and, beyond that, one that is easily ignored should the DM want to bring in characters from any other setting including homebrew for the adventure (with, if I remember right, recommendations on how to do so).

 

[Staffan]

Yeah Darksun is a prime example of metaplot going to far. I still think Krynn is the poster child of way to far.

Probably. I'm not super-familiar with Dragonlance, but at least Dark Sun never had a next-generation thing going where they changed to a completely different game system and entirely different magic systems, and then changed back when people mysteriously didn't like that.

Here are two pointers I think are useful for anyone who's going to make a new version of a beloved setting:

1. If the setting is currently active, you want to maintain it in its current state, maybe with a few changes if the timeline has to move forward, or if you're changing it to a new version with new rules that need explaining. The best such change in D&D history was probably the Forgotten Realms moving from 2e to 3e - despite the rather big mechanical changes, they explained those as saying neither version was a perfectly accurate reflection of the Realms, but that the new mechanics were a better approximation. The example that sticks with me in my memory is the Simbul, who was changed from a level high-20s (or maybe 30) wizard to a same-level sorcerer, and the devs said "Well, she's always been innately magical, but AD&D didn't have a class other than Wizard to reflect arcane magic, but in 3e we have the sorcerer instead so we're using that now." There were some other changes as well, but they were primarily of a "time marches on" nature rather than a "now the world works differently" type.

2. If the setting has lain fallow for a long time, go back to its roots. Find the stuff that people liked about the setting, and focus on those. Feel free to alter other aspects of it, and release it as a "reboot". Don't bother too much with later additions, though it they turned out to be largely positive feel free to include them from the start. This is the approach taken by the current TORG: Eternity release, and was the approach taken by the 4e Dark Sun release (which I gather worked out pretty well, particularly when adjusting for being 4e).

What you really don't want to do is take a currently successful setting and totally revamp it. That's what they did with 4e Forgotten Realms, and we all saw how well that worked out. The problem here is that moving the FR timeline forward by a century, bringing in a new continent, and assorted other weirdness will likely alienate everyone who liked the Forgotten Realms as they were (and while I'm not the biggest fan, I gather that a whole lot of people are), but people who didn't like it will still see the Forgotten Realms logo and go "Eh, I'll pass."

 

[JeffB]

Druids were in Dark Sun all along, with the change that they gained their power from a pact with a particular Spirit of the Land, and their spell access was determined by the land they were guarding (they would have major access to the sphere of Cosmos as well as that of an element appropriate to their guarded land, and possibly minor access to a second appropriate element - a druid guarding an oasis would have major access to Water, but one guarding a volcanic hot spring would have major access to Water and minor to Fire).

The late-comer druid thing you're thinking of is probably a particular group of druids mentioned in Mindlords of the Last Sea, the surfing druids of the tiny beach village of Cuarsen. That was a horrible, horrible idea, and should be expunged in any reasonable rewrite (assuming they even describe the lands outside the Tyr region in a hypothetical 5th edition version).

That said, you do make a good point otherwise. To take Dark Sun as an example, it changed quite a lot over its run, particularly as a result of the Prism Pentad-fueled metaplot. My personal opinion is that some of those changes were good and brought some variety to the setting (which was kind of monotonous in the original version), but the means by which those changes came about were bad and heavy-handed.

For those interested who don't know much about Dark Sun, the original boxed set covered an area called the Tyr Region or the Tablelands, about the size of Spain. This region had seven city-states, all governed in much the same way: a mighty sorcerer-monarch (who was a dual-classed level 21+ wizard/psionicist, with the equivalent of a prestige class that gradually transformed them into a dragon) at the top, served by a hierarchy of templars (priests who received magical power from the sorcerer-monarch, and had a number of civic powers like being able to command/accuse/judge the citizens of their particular city-state), and with noble houses owning most of the city and its slaves. There were some differences - for example, Balic made pretenses of being a representative democracy (but if the people voted wrong, the sorcerer-king Andropinis had a tendency to become wroth), and Draj had some heavy Aztec overtones with human sacrifice and stuff, but by and large those differences were cosmetic.

The Prism Pentad was a pentalogy of novels that drove some heavy change in the setting, particularly in the first and fifth books. In the first book (the Verdant Passage), we follow a group of heroes who learn that Kalak, the sorcerer-king of Tyr, is going to attempt a ritual that will rapidly progress him through the stages of dragon-hood (in game terms, from 21st to 30th level) at the cost of draining the life of the whole city of Tyr. They manage to stop and kill him before he can complete this ritual, and proclaim Tyr to be a democracy and end slavery.

In the final book, the heroes manage to first kill another sorcerer-queen, and later to kill the actual Dragon of Tyr (the guy who Kalak wanted to be like). However, doing so meant the release of the ancient being who originally powered the Sorcerer-Kings in their genocidal wars that caused the world to become what it is. Before they manage to trap this being in new bonds, he slays/banishes an additional two sorcerer-monarchs.

The end result is that after the Prism Pentad, four out of seven sorcerer-monarchs are dead or missing, and their city-states are all dealing with this in different ways. This means that there's some additional variety between the different city-states - in my opinion, a good thing. But the way we got to that point was extremely ham-handed.

Nice summary. I have not owned any DS material but like a good amount I have heard about it. May have to pick up some PDFs.

 

[JeffB]

All these setting/love/hate threads reminded me of a document I wrote in YK2 for my Realms campaign. I was not that happy after Cloak and Dagger,the novels I had read, an annoying Realms-lawyer and the 3E FRCS. So I decided to take some events and re-write them. I never finished everything. I just said "screw it" and went back to the OGB. It wasn't worth my time. There is no good answer for everyone,especially WOTC. This is why I think they should leave these dead horses alone. Below is the hack I wrote from up on my high horse for the group at the time. As a player I would have no issues with something like this. When I started playing, everything was hacked together by each DM. And the differences from one DM's world to another was a good thing, even if they were both using GH, or Arduin, or Fantasy Europe, The Wilderlands, or some mash up of multiple settings. Nowadays many frown upon it. :shrug:

Lost Tales of the Forgotten Realms


Welcome to my vision of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting. Herein you will find how my alternate Realms differ from the Official Forgotten Realms of TSR and WOTC.

In essence, the official version of the Reams has been made piecemeal over a 15 to 16 year period without a single guiding hand. Role-playing products, Computer games, and Novels have all shaped its future. In many of those cases, it has been shaped rather poorly, in my view. I had always felt the core ideas of the Realms made for a great D&D world, just that in the end too many cooks in the kitchen have ruined what once was a very good stew.

General Differences

As you will see later, some of the history of the Realms will be altered quite subtly, but the results of which will prove very noteworthy. These small changes in history will result in a Realms where magic, though still somewhat common, is not the all permeating force it I has been historically. E.g.: You are not going to find an abundance of magic shops; in fact you might not find any, ever! Then again, you may. The Red Wizards are not peddling magical goods all over Faerun like used car salesman. Spellcasters are not as common, and in the vast majority of cases magic items will need to be found, stolen, or won! That is not to say you wont find a Red Mage here or there peddling a potion or two, but it will not be the mission statement of their entire order.

It is worthy to note that these changes make many of the grandiose iconic personalities of the Realms less powerful than they are currently written (though woe be to any foolhardy adventurer who would think they are NOT powerful: only less so than written officially). The Simbul is not single-handedly fending off the nation of Thay, but she is a mighty sorceress. Nor is Elminster the Sage a demi-god who shrugs off the threats of a Legion of Demons like water off a ducks back, yet he is fully capable of handling most mortal threats, and many extraordinary threats as well. And who is to say which affairs the wizened-sage will decide to meddle in?

Another aspect Ive not often agreed with is the overabundance of certain foes that in my opinion should be rare and special in a D&D game. First to come to mind of course are the Drow. What was once a race of supremely evil beings know only to a few, is now a common enemy that any barmaid has run into on one occasion or another. This also applies to Extraplanar creatures; i.e. Tieflings, Genasi, Demons, Devils, etc. It seems lately that every EVIL MASTERMIND of the Realms is some sort of half-demon, half-fiend, vampire, or other kewl template. While those types of villains used sparingly are indeed very cool, having one in charge of every evil power group in the Realms along with several minions of similar type is bland and rather silly. In my Realms the Dragons, Drow, and Extraplanars are rare indeed, and not xp boosters. You have been warned.

Then there is the hokey-ness. Silly monsters, Cities full of Adventurers, Entrances to the most fabled of Dungeons in a barroom floor somewhere, common knowledge to all, and complete with an innkeeper who charges entrance fees. While the dungeon or city in question may exist, it may or may not be quite the same as you thought, or even be in the same place.!

The majority of things will remain the same. Shadowdale is still a sleepy backwater village home to Elminster the Sage. Watedeep is still a bustling cosmopolitan city. The Zhenatrim still exist and wish to control trade and the entire Heartlands of the Realms. Cormyrwellwe shall leave that for later exploration.

In conclusion, this essay essentially documents a tone-ing down of the Realms, an effort to bring it back more in line with its fresh and exciting roots as a campaign setting for the 1st Edition AD&D game, while also juggling some of the events that have happened along the way up to and including the changes brought out by the FRCS published by WOTC in 2001 to update the world to the 3rd edition rules.


Key Changes in History (rough draft)

Time of Troubles (1358 DR)

Mystra destroyed. Midnight the mortal is only able to absorb a small part of the former Goddess power. The Weave begins to slowly fade. Many minor magics that once were are no longer.

Lord Bane is destroyed, but manages to transfer a small reminder of his divine essence to his son Iyachtu Xvim.

The Spider Queen Loth and Correllon Larethain war on another plane and lose contact with their faithful. Loths clergy lose control over the Drow cities w/out the strong hand of their Goddess, and civil war erupts throughout the underdark. Hundreds of thousands of Drow destroy each other. Correllon triumphs against the Queen of the DemonWeb and although not destroyed, she is injured severely. She returns to find the vast majority of her faithful dead. She vows to revenge, in time, and the drow delve deeper under the surface to lick their wounds and recuperate. Drow sightings/incursions above ground cease.

The town of Shadowdale survives the battle w/ Banes Zhent army, but at great cost: many notable inhabitants die defending the town, or disappear.

By 1365 DR

The Zhentarim have splintered between the churches of Cyric and Xvim: Xvim having the llons share of followers and greatest presence. Cyric loses several of his portfolios to others, effectively becoming a lesser deity. He is slowly driven mad by being given such great power during the ToT. In his growing madness, he makes war upon Zhentil Keep and the Xvim followers. While he does not succeed completely, Zhentil Keep suffers greatly and looses its death grip around the Moonsea area. With the help of Xvims Church, led by Fzoul Chembryl, Manshoon and his Zhentarim re-build, but it will take much time for the Zhents to regain their former stature. Many towns in the Moonsea area such as Phlan, grow and prosper with Zhentil keep now focused on rebuilding.

The Elven Retreat winds down as those who are left and wish to leave for Evermeet do so. The great forest of Cormanthor lies mostly silent. Though a few bands of elves remain, much of the forest is unoccupied, and several groups of bandits and humanoids move to inhabit the vast woodland.

 

[Remathilis]

By basically allowing any FR-based character to transfer over ad thus bring all their baggage?

Yes it can be dealt with, but I guess it just struck people as being careless.

Note: I've never played the original Ravenloft and even I thought it a bad decision

You mean the adventure you can literally have Mordenkainen join your party in was ruined by Realms baggage?

Right....

 

[Shasarak]

Look at the reactions to Curse of Strahd in this thread. Complaints about how they reworked the setting and then jammed it into Forgotten Realms. There's already quite a bit of grumbling about Acerak appearing in Forgotten Realms. So, the idea that "anyone that married to a different canonical take can adjust things as needed" is already problematic.

I played a lot of Ravenloft back in the day and I have never purchased or played Curse of Strahd because I saw nothing there other then a remake or maybe a re-imagining of the original adventure.

The new Acerak adventure though at least looks interesting even though there are so many Forgotten Realms villains that they could have used instead of stealing yet another Greyhawk one.

I'm sorry, but, I just watched how "reasonable" setting fans are for the past six or so years. I have zero faith.

I would not blame the settings fans for reacting to the poor treatment that they have received over the past six years or so.

 

[robus]

You mean the adventure you can literally have Mordenkainen join your party in was ruined by Realms baggage?

Right....

I'm aware there are apparently other issues too

 

[robus]

But the Mists bringing in characters from other settings has been one of the bases of the setting since... well, since the origin of the full setting in 1990 boxed set! This is the setting that pulled Lord Soth from Dragonlance for its own use, for goodness sake! So bringing them in from the Forgotten Realms is hardly a bug, it's a feature, and, beyond that, one that is easily ignored should the DM want to bring in characters from any other setting including homebrew for the adventure (with, if I remember right, recommendations on how to do so).

So Ravenloft was never meant to be a living setting in its own.? It's only visited from others? That's where my lack of history trips me up I thought it was a fully fledged setting that could host campaigns without needing outside support?

 

[Hussar]

I'm curious -outside a completely disposable and replaceable page or two from the opening, how was CoS "jammed" into the Forgotten Realms?

OH hey, I didn't say I agreed with the point. I think that canon arguments are utterly pointless. I'd much rather see a new take on an old setting than a rehash. But, that being said, I know I'm alone in that.