Mechanic (Automobile) Question

[Terwox]

Ok. I was just flipping around in my angst looking at other people's angst, as that's what I do, until I realized that I could ask for advice here, although it isn't terribly normal. Note that my real question isn't about mechanics itself -- it's about what I should do, and if I can tell if I'm being ripped off or not.

Anyway, here's my problem in brief: I bought a used piece of trash 92 geo metro. Spent 750, the bluebook was lower but I was desperate. Lessee, spent 750 on the brakes and the exhaust, 55 bucks or so on a new battery/battery holder, hours cleaning the thing out (it was owned by a farmer and was full of filth and poo,) that sort of thing.

Bought it to drive from Illinois to Louisiana, where I'm going to grad school, blahblah. Anyway it's ok here for a few days, and then it won't start. I mess with it, it starts weak a few times, dies later that day. Call AAA, get a jump that doesn't work, so I freak out, call a few places, and take it to a mechanic that has a starter in stock and is willing to do it for a nominally decent price. (50 labor 120 part etc, beat the 380 part 85 labor from the dealership.)

Anyway, it's a week later, and this morning I turned the key and it was dead. Much frustration ensues, then five seconds later it starts. This is what it was doing before it died the previous time, which makes me think that the mechanic I took it to (oh, names are fine, Blackwell's,) didn't really do anything. A friend reminds me that I didn't get the old starter from them, (a mistake I attribute to my current status of being young and foolish,) so I don't know.

So I have a 30 day labor warranty and a lifetime warranty, so I take it to Blackwell's, tell them about it, and he says to bring it in soon and to hurry in the next few days, even though I have a 30 day warranty. Little warning bells became bigger warning bells at that point (a scam will want you to Act Now While this Offer Lasts! after all.) so I left.

There's another mechanic in town that the campus police recommended (I know virtually no one down here,) that I called before about getting the starter fixed, and he seemed genuine and legit, while the guy at Blackwell's wasn't shady, but he was cheery... well, it's hard to convey the intuition you get about people, isn't it? oh well.

Regardless. The guy at Blackwell's said "something might be making your starter go bad, I'll have to check it out for a day, bring it in soon and leave it here" -- so I'd get my labor insurance for free, of course. I'm thinking I should leave it there and see what he says about it -- as long as it's free -- and run away if he wants me to pay a lot for it. (I had him check the car out before he replaced the starter previously, so I just don't know.)

I just don't see why I should have to pay extra for his mistakes.

The bothersome stuff is that my family at home is very good with automobiles, and this could all be virtually free if I was back in Illinois, but that's just not worth worrying about I suppose.

Anyway, Quinn's Texaco is the mechanic I got a good feeling about...

oh, another thing. Blackwell's, although I tried to disguise my desperation, did know that I didn't have a phone number here... giveaway that I was easy to mess with.

Anyway, if you know about cars, is there something that could be causing my car not to start? (It isn't the battery, by the way, I got it jumped and there was nothing, and my headlights came on.)

And should I take it to Blackwell's, or Quinn's (Quinn's would have to order parts because they're just a garage...) well, I guess while writing this out I sort of know what my plan is anyway. Take it to Blackwell's, see what they say about it for free, if they try to charge me a lot I'll run like hell and take it to Quinn's and pay whatever. But is there something that can make my starter go bad? Could I just have a bad starter and a bad alternator (sp?)?

Alas. Thanks for reading this, although I think I worked most of it out just writing it down... hah.

 

[Desdichado]

Yeah, could be the alternator, I suppose. That does suck, though. Having a good mechanic you can trust to not rip you off is a thing of gold.

 

[Gizzard]

There are many online boards devoted to various makes of car; I use www.sr20forum.com for my sr20de powered nissan for instance. The people on such a board would likely be more knowledgable than the average D&D player. ;-)

As for the starter, it should be pretty easy to slip under the car and see whether the starter is new or not if you have any doubts about the honesty of the mechanic. I'd give you 10-to-1 that he did replace the starter, just because it's not that hard to do.

OTOH, from your description, I would have guessed 1) battery, 2) alternator.

It's pretty easy to figure whether the starter is working, you just lay a heavy screwdriver (with an insulated handle!) from power to the terminals and see if it cranks over. (Be careful with electricity! If this description isn't clear, don't guess. Also, don't use a lightweight piece of wire (like I did when I checked my starter) because it will superheat from the current and melt in less than a second. A heavy screwdriver is good.)

 

[Terwox]

Thanks to both of you:
anyway, I didn't want to go to a car forum, I was more wondering what a layperson with little knowledge of cars would do in my situation, but I think I worked it out what to do...
Two problems with checking the terminals with a heavy screwdriver:
I don't have a heavy screwdriver, I don't have any tools, I just moved very far away. Problem two: I don't know what a terminal is.
Further, I don't know what a starter looks like...
Unless you mean put a screwdriver on the two connectors of the battery, although iirc that's supposed to break something. heh.
oh, and it's not the battery: had somebody out to jump the battery as soon as it wouldn't start, and it wouldn't jump. the guy w/ the tow truck said "get a phonebook and find somebody to replace your starter." from most people I've asked, if it won't jump, it's not the battery's fault? I just got a new battery though, so it could be a dud/bad install (paid for it, my family didn't have time to do it.)

 

[reanjr]

Ok. I was just flipping around in my angst looking at other people's angst, as that's what I do, until I realized that I could ask for advice here, although it isn't terribly normal. Note that my real question isn't about mechanics itself -- it's about what I should do, and if I can tell if I'm being ripped off or not.

Anyway, here's my problem in brief: I bought a used piece of trash 92 geo metro. Spent 750, the bluebook was lower but I was desperate. Lessee, spent 750 on the brakes and the exhaust, 55 bucks or so on a new battery/battery holder, hours cleaning the thing out (it was owned by a farmer and was full of filth and poo,) that sort of thing.

Bought it to drive from Illinois to Louisiana, where I'm going to grad school, blahblah. Anyway it's ok here for a few days, and then it won't start. I mess with it, it starts weak a few times, dies later that day. Call AAA, get a jump that doesn't work, so I freak out, call a few places, and take it to a mechanic that has a starter in stock and is willing to do it for a nominally decent price. (50 labor 120 part etc, beat the 380 part 85 labor from the dealership.)

Anyway, it's a week later, and this morning I turned the key and it was dead. Much frustration ensues, then five seconds later it starts. This is what it was doing before it died the previous time, which makes me think that the mechanic I took it to (oh, names are fine, Blackwell's,) didn't really do anything. A friend reminds me that I didn't get the old starter from them, (a mistake I attribute to my current status of being young and foolish,) so I don't know.

So I have a 30 day labor warranty and a lifetime warranty, so I take it to Blackwell's, tell them about it, and he says to bring it in soon and to hurry in the next few days, even though I have a 30 day warranty. Little warning bells became bigger warning bells at that point (a scam will want you to Act Now While this Offer Lasts! after all.) so I left.

There's another mechanic in town that the campus police recommended (I know virtually no one down here,) that I called before about getting the starter fixed, and he seemed genuine and legit, while the guy at Blackwell's wasn't shady, but he was cheery... well, it's hard to convey the intuition you get about people, isn't it? oh well.

Regardless. The guy at Blackwell's said "something might be making your starter go bad, I'll have to check it out for a day, bring it in soon and leave it here" -- so I'd get my labor insurance for free, of course. I'm thinking I should leave it there and see what he says about it -- as long as it's free -- and run away if he wants me to pay a lot for it. (I had him check the car out before he replaced the starter previously, so I just don't know.)

I just don't see why I should have to pay extra for his mistakes.

The bothersome stuff is that my family at home is very good with automobiles, and this could all be virtually free if I was back in Illinois, but that's just not worth worrying about I suppose.

Anyway, Quinn's Texaco is the mechanic I got a good feeling about...

oh, another thing. Blackwell's, although I tried to disguise my desperation, did know that I didn't have a phone number here... giveaway that I was easy to mess with.

Anyway, if you know about cars, is there something that could be causing my car not to start? (It isn't the battery, by the way, I got it jumped and there was nothing, and my headlights came on.)

And should I take it to Blackwell's, or Quinn's (Quinn's would have to order parts because they're just a garage...) well, I guess while writing this out I sort of know what my plan is anyway. Take it to Blackwell's, see what they say about it for free, if they try to charge me a lot I'll run like hell and take it to Quinn's and pay whatever. But is there something that can make my starter go bad? Could I just have a bad starter and a bad alternator (sp?)?

Alas. Thanks for reading this, although I think I worked most of it out just writing it down... hah.

[edit]: IANACM (I am not a certified mechanic)

If it will not start after a jump then it is the battery (unlikely as it would mean the battery is not just dead but dead for life) or the starter. I suppose there could be something more esoteric going on, but those are the two biggies. Oh, listen for the sound of the starter clicking over as well. If you can hear that then generally the car has power and no need to worry about the battery. If you can't then, well, maybe you just can't hear it so it means nothing. Also, may sound stupid, but make sure you give it PLENTY of time to jump. Even if the headlights work, don't necessarily mean the car has enough juice to start.

Coming from Illinois (with a car that old) to Louisiana, you might, just might be lucky enough that it just needs a hefty tune up for the weather change. That can happen, especially on older cars (but not really older cars since they were not so picky about such things).

I don't know if Murray's is nationwide (I think it is), but they tend to be staffed with very reputable and knowledgable employees (at least around here). They would be able to test your battery for free to rule it out and they would even give you advice on how to go about figuring out what is wrong and they will tell you how to repair it yourself if you are mechanically inclined and they will even tell you when the problem is beyond the scope of the common man.

Could also be an electrical problem if it is intermittent with no discernible pattern. You would definitely need a mechanic for that as the wiring harness is very complicated on any semi-modern car (and most old ones).

 

[reanjr]

the guy w/ the tow truck said "get a phonebook and find somebody to replace your starter." from most people I've asked, if it won't jump, it's not the battery's fault?

I have to disagree with that conventional wisdom. If the battery is somehow malfunctioning (leak for instance), a jump won't help. On the other hand, if a jump doesn't work, then you can definitely rule out the alternator (doesn't necessarily mean the alternator isn't bad, but there is something else going on as well). The alternator simply takes the engine's power and recharges the battery. If you jump the battery then you have done for it what the alternator does anyway. So if it still doesn't work, it's not the alternator's fault.

 

[Terwox]

quick question:
if my battery is going dead (but won't jump,) could it be the alternator that's going dead?
further, is there something that can make my starter go dead, or am I getting ripped off? I'm considering just taking it somewhere else at this point... I just don't know.

oh! you might have misread, I'm not sure -- I got a jump, and it would not start. I thought this guaranteed it was not the battery -- as the jump bypasses the battery, and supplies it's own power. Am I right that I miscommunicated that, or no?

 

[tarchon]

On a 12 year old car in that condition, I'd say it's probably a nasty intermittent connection or short in the electrical system, or the battery's ground strap is bad (and yes, that can make a jump start fail). The starter is pretty low on the list of likely causes, although it won't hurt to get a free guess out of the guy that did the work, and I think he owes you at least that much.
Another thing that occasionally causes symptoms like this is a bad ignition switch, or sometimes the switch in the gear shift that cuts out the starter if you're not in Park gets stuck (alternatively the one on the clutch if it's a manual).

I'd say to invest $20 in a Radio Shack multimeter (or at least a long screwdriver) and figure it out for yourself; with this kind of car, you'd better learn how to do basic work on it fast (especially diagnostics), or else you'll probably be better off selling it. A Haynes or Chilton's manual might not be a bad idea too - it's how I got through grad school on $500 cars.

As for "if it won't jump, it's the starter" - nope. I've owned several old beaters much like yours, and it's never been the starter when that happened, which was rather frequently. The problem with starting is that it takes a huge current to turn an engine over, so the circuit really has to be in good shape to do it, especially if your rickety old engine turns hard for various mechanical reasons or the battery is kind of old.

If you haven't heard any half-hearted whining from the starter at any point ("rrr..rrrr...rrr") and it's kind of an all-or-nothing failure, you 99% likely have a bad electrical connection somewhere. Try wiggling the ignition switch.

 

[Gizzard]

...with this kind of car, you'd better learn how to do basic work on it fast (especially diagnostics)...

I agree; the only alternative here is to find a mechanic you can trust 100% and be willing to shell out big chunks of money on his say-so.

If money is tight, I highly second the suggestion to learn how to do some basic work on the car yourself. This buys you two things: 1) you can do easy work like brakes and filters yourself and save labor charges, 2) you have a better idea whether a given mechanic is good or not. (And even a mediocre mechanic is better when you can consisely explain your problem to him and follow up a bit on his work). On the downside, you will skin your knuckles a lot and get your fingernails dirty. ;-)

Oh, listen for the sound of the starter clicking over as well.

Did you hear this sound? You should hear the metallic CLICK of the soleniod snapping when you turn the key.

 

[Terwox]

ok, fixed.
starter cables were bad. from the battery to the thing.
makes me wonder if the starter was actually bad, but the psychologist in me says "i called and said the starter was bad, asked him how much it would be for the starter and how much labor to replace it, took it in and asked him to check it out, then left and said to go ahead and do it if it was just the starter."
so it was $26 bucks. 15 labor, 4 dollar parts, something else screwy, whatever, done.
anyway -- what is a haynes or chilton's manual? I am interested in learning how to do the basics myself quite a bit -- which should I get for a 92 geo? generally just looking and cheapness and quickness and ease of use in a manual. (hey, sounds like what I want in a d20 manual, too, imagine that!)
thanks a bunch for all the input people, if anything it just helped calm me down a bit. thanks.