D&D 5E Medicine Checks

[abirdcall]

Survival is a weird assortment of disparate abilities.

• Navigation
• Tracking
• Foraging
• Sailing
• ...
• Anatomy
• Medicine
• Healing

At this point, why not fold everything into Nature?



Or maybe, Nature splits into two large skills?

• Elementalism (earth-fire, geology, metalwork, stonework, air-water, weather, sailing, ether, stars, navigation)
• Survival (life, medicine, poison, disease, humanoid anatomy, animals, tracking, plants, foraging)

Nature is knowing.
Survival is doing.

It's one thing to know what plants are edible. It's another to actually go into the brush and forage those foods while on the look out for danger etc.

Medicine is in this weird space where it's supposed to be the doing of Nature, but most of the doing is not necessary to the game (such as stabilization).

Looking at a body and guessing at the time of death should be about knowledge. Just like looking at a weird plant and guessing about its properties should be Nature not Survival.

The other thing that undermines this exercise is that anyone can attempt Wisdom (Medicine) checks even without the proficiency (as well as other ability checks). So even if if comes up in a campaign, it's not really the character's time to shine as in many cases everyone else can also have a go.

 

[Ashrym]

I merged Medicine into Survival due to the same issue of Medicine not having nearly enough play. Now Survival is our catch-all "humanoid body" skill-- both for identifying things like tracks, knowing how things like poisonous mushrooms would affect you when eaten, and any other broken or inured body analysis.

The only way I'd ever find Medicine by itself as a meaningful skill would be if I removed magical healing spells from the respective lists, so that the only way to stabilize was to make Medicine checks. Spare the Dying makes even that superfluous.

I don't think survival covers the autopsy / medical examiner aspect. A midwife knows about helping with childbirth and that doesn't translate to foraging.

Removing the skill is obviously an option. I'm looking for alternatives to ignoring it or removing it if you have any ideas on how to use it.

But you should be. As a DM, it’s your job to call for a Wisdom (Medicine) check when a player declares an action that you think requires one, and it’s the players’ job to roll the dice when you tell them to.

So if a player doesn't make any such requests or attempts does that mean you also would remove the skill? Read any published adventure. There is always the assumption of expected activities with listed DC's. That's how D&D works.

I want to add some of those expected activities if I think they will enhance the story and gameplay.

Nature is knowing.
Survival is doing.

It's one thing to know what plants are edible. It's another to actually go into the brush and forage those foods while on the look out for danger etc.

Medicine is in this weird space where it's supposed to be the doing of Nature, but most of the doing is not necessary to the game (such as stabilization).

Looking at a body and guessing at the time of death should be about knowledge. Just like looking at a weird plant and guessing about its properties should be Nature not Survival.

The other thing that undermines this exercise is that anyone can attempt Wisdom (Medicine) checks even without the proficiency (as well as other ability checks). So even if if comes up in a campaign, it's not really the character's time to shine as in many cases everyone else can also have a go.

I can respond to that with nature is knowing and medicine is doing. I think the difference between nature and survival demonstrates the expected difference between nature and medicine.

I think you might be adding too much to lore checks.

"Your Intelligence (Nature) check measures your ability to recall lore about terrain, plants and animals, the weather, and natural cycles."

Medicine seems to cover humanoids in areas nature does not.

Either way, I already know I can remove or ignore it. I'd be interested if you had ideas on how to use medicine.

 

[abirdcall]

I can respond to that with nature is knowing and medicine is doing. I think the difference between nature and survival demonstrates the expected difference between nature and medicine.

Which is exactly what I said.

I think you might be adding too much to lore checks.

"Your Intelligence (Nature) check measures your ability to recall lore about terrain, plants and animals, the weather, and natural cycles."

What do you think Anatomy and Physiology is?

Medicine seems to cover humanoids in areas nature does not.

Does it though? Read it again.

Either way, I already know I can remove or ignore it. I'd be interested if you had ideas on how to use medicine.

That's fine, I wasn't responding to you. I don't have any ideas about that but I'm still allowed to post in this thread to other people. If you don't like it then ignore my posts.

 

[Ashrym]

Which is exactly what I said.

Sorry, I thought you were only applying the idea to survival and not medicine as well.

What do you think Anatomy and Physiology is?

Knowledge, but not necessarily interaction with that knowledge. The difference I see is between animals and humanoids. That's like veterinary medicine vs a family doctor.

Does it though? Read it again.

If you want to give a different interpretation then tell my why it's not different. I'm always open to perspective.

That's fine, I wasn't responding to you. I don't have any ideas about that but I'm still allowed to post in this thread to other people. If you don't like it then ignore my posts.

Responding in an open thread is open to response by anyone. I would not tell someone not to post. "Don't use medicine" is a perfectly reasonable approach and I appreciate that's your feedback. I'm simply planning on moving in a different direct than that feedback.

 

[Salthorae]

Xanathar's has a few examples where proficiency in Medicine can grant the use of tools Advantage on certain uses of their tools:

This tool proficiency grants additional insight when you treat anyone suffering from alcohol poisoning or when you can use alcohol to dull pain.

When administering treatment, you can transform medicine that is bitter or sour into a pleasing concoction.

Your mastery of herbalism improves your ability to treat illnesses and wounds by augmenting your methods of care with medicinal plants.

When you treat the victim of a poison, your knowledge grants you added insight into how to provide the best care to your patient.

 

[Hriston]

So if a player doesn't make any such requests or attempts does that mean you also would remove the skill?

I’m not sure I understand this question. Let’s say the players don’t declare any actions for their characters that I would consider to warrant a Wisdom (Medicine) check. You’re asking if I would remove the skill from the game? From their character sheets? Why on earth would I do such a thing?

Read any published adventure. There is always the assumption of expected activities with listed DC's. That's how D&D works.

D&D doesn’t require any published adventure to play. That’s how D&D works.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I don't think survival covers the autopsy / medical examiner aspect. A midwife knows about helping with childbirth and that doesn't translate to foraging.

It does for me.

The skills are deliberately so wide in application that the idea that someone proficient in Survival knows how to track hobgoblins and help birth a baby doesn't bother me a bit. Especially considering I've never once had a PC need to make a check to help birth a baby.

I care much more about removing the skills that get little to no play than I worry about the oddity of what merging skills might result in. Medicine? Part of Survival. Sleight of Hand? Deception using Dexterity. Intimidation? Persuasion using Strength. Acrobatics? Athletics using Dexterity.

 

[Ashrym]

I’m not sure I understand this question. Let’s say the players don’t declare any actions for their characters that I would consider to warrant a Wisdom (Medicine) check. You’re asking if I would remove the skill from the game? From their character sheets? Why on earth would I do such a thing?

I'm asking because it's something mentioned a few times in this thread. If players never initiates an action to create a use for the check then what is the point of having the check in the game at all? That's why I asked you your opinion.

I'm commenting because I, as a DM, might want to use the checks for story flavor. For example, in one of the adventures there is a check when examining a corpse that determines the body died by creatures bursting out of it's flesh after implanted eggs hatched.

That's flavor and telegraphs what to expect shortly thereafter. That doesn't happen unless the DM deliberately creates a scenario with an expected action. The expected action has an expected DC. I'm looking for examples like that. Creating those scenarios causes players to take actions that initiate the checks.

This isn't a debate on how the D&D check system works. It's a request for help with what activities and at what difficulties those checks might entail. That doesn't matter if it's in response to a character initiated action or a DM planned scenario.

D&D doesn’t require any published adventure to play. That’s how D&D works.

I don't disagree. Where I disagree is in thinking that reacting to player actions is the only time a person would set a DC. DM's create the scenarios and those scenarios include expected actions. Those actions include expected DC's and results. The only difference is in having planned it out in advance instead of waiting for players to try something.

Don't get caught up in "how D&D should be played". How you play it still going to have scenarios and DC's, correct?

 

[Ashrym]

It does for me.

The skills are deliberately so wide in application that the idea that someone proficient in Survival knows how to track hobgoblins and help birth a baby doesn't bother me a bit. Especially considering I've never once had a PC need to make a check to help birth a baby.

I care much more about removing the skills that get little to no play than I worry about the oddity of what merging skills might result in. Medicine? Part of Survival. Sleight of Hand? Deception using Dexterity. Intimidation? Persuasion using Strength. Acrobatics? Athletics using Dexterity.

I appreciate your feedback. I'm still looking at going in another direction, however, so if you were to flesh out medicine more what would you include?

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

NOt sure if you're interested in just random brainstorming, but here are a few ideas that have mainly investigative or RP uses, rather than practical healing applications.

Most of this is just off the top of my head (caveat emptor, I'm very new to 5e!). However, a few are from 3pp bestiaries: "remove tumor" was related to some sort of attack form; and "treat the slowed condition" came from a weapon attack implicitly causing a mobility-hampering leg injury. The haircut thing is a nod to the old "barber surgeon."

DC 5

• extract a tooth
• give shave / haircut to order
• treat minor / cosmetic (0 hp) injuries (eg, rashes, burns, scratches)

DC 10

• medical communication (eg, read journals, give lectures, draw anatomical diagrams)
• craft simple prosthetic (eg, dentures, non-functional hand, fake eye)
• preserve biological sample
• treat a wound to avoid scarring

DC 15

• craft complex prosthetic (eg, spectacles, basic jointed hand, realistic fake eye)
• remove tumor
• extract rot grub (within 3 rounds of penetration)
• minimally injurious torture (!!)
• deduce general medical history upon examination (eg, congenital issues, major childhood diseases)

DC 20

• extract rot grub (more than 3 rounds after penetration)

Varies

• treat / calm madness
• treat injury-related condition (eg, blindness; slowed by hamstring, sprain, fracture)

I'd like to see Medicine checks applied with abilities besides Wisdom, if that rule is available. Seems like forensics and academic uses are good match for Intelligence. A competent, stylish haircut is totally a Charisma check, because no one wants to offend the king at his daughter's wedding ball.

Also wish there was a Physician's Kit (with, eg, blades, pliers, painkillers, tweezers, sutures, jars, etc) that would somehow synergize with Medicine). But it's not obvious how to do that, given how Ability Checks and Proficiency work.