Melee Sorcerer advice

[Asmor]

I want to build a melee-oriented sorcerer. Rogue multiclass for daggermaster PP & 1/encounter sneak attack. Not planning on taking any further multiclass feats, though I'm open to the idea.

Oh, and it's a half-elf chaos sorcerer. Starting at level 10.

So I've got 6 feats to spend. I think 17 dex, 21 cha, but I might be wrong... That's off the top of my head.

Feats:
Rogue Multiclass
Sorcererous Blade Channeling
Implement Expertise
Leather Armor Training
Action Surge
Slaying Action

I envision the character with a reckless, devil-may-care style, but I can't help but worry about his survivability. Any thoughts? Oh, and what at-will would you take? I'm thinking Eyebite, since it's charisma based and gets the bonus damage from chaos magic, and could help me with maneuvering.

 

[themilkman]

I really like your idea of using Daggermaster to make the Sorcerer more powerful. None of the Daggermaster class features specify that they only apply to melee attacks with the dagger, so they should work with it as an implement too. (It will be interesting to see if this gets errataed.)

A few optimization notes. You may have already thought of these things, so feel free to ignore them if you did...

Sorcererous Blade Channeling allows you to make ranged attacks at melee range. It does not, however, add the Weapon keyword to the ability power. Thus, these powers can't benefit from the dagger's proficiency bonus to-hit. So, really, the only thing that changes is the range of the power (so it doesn't provoke OAs).

Eyebite uses Warlock implements, so if you want your hit chances to be as good with eyebite as with your other powers, you're going to have to keep a wand or rod with a respectable enchantment sitting around. This won't be noticeable at the beginning of the game, at any rate, but later on, when the math starts to expect that you have a magical implement, you're going to have more trouble keeping this to-hit bonus up with the others. You're probably going to notice the difference at Paragon.

Another half-elf bonus power you might want to think about is the Bard power Guiding Strike. It is a melee weapon power, charisma-based, that lowers your target's defenses , making it a good set-up strike for a bigger power. And since it lowers the defense for everyone, it's helpful for your party too.

 

[Eldorian]

I want to build a melee-oriented sorcerer. Rogue multiclass for daggermaster PP & 1/encounter sneak attack. Not planning on taking any further multiclass feats, though I'm open to the idea.

Oh, and it's a half-elf chaos sorcerer. Starting at level 10.

So I've got 6 feats to spend. I think 17 dex, 21 cha, but I might be wrong... That's off the top of my head.

Feats:
Rogue Multiclass
Sorcererous Blade Channeling
Implement Expertise
Leather Armor Training
Action Surge
Slaying Action

I envision the character with a reckless, devil-may-care style, but I can't help but worry about his survivability. Any thoughts? Oh, and what at-will would you take? I'm thinking Eyebite, since it's charisma based and gets the bonus damage from chaos magic, and could help me with maneuvering.

Take Guiding Strike from bard with your half elf ability. It's a spell, so you get bonus damage, and is melee.

Consider taking a mage's weapon parrying dagger +1, a level 2 item, for your offhand. You can also use it to regain a rogue multiclass power if you get any, and it's a point of AC without feat cost. My sorcerer has it now.

Take Nimble Blade if you want another + to hit. My group doesn't allow expertise so we don't have a feat tax, but it is a better choice if it's allowed.

That's all I got. Don't lock yourself into "melee sorcerer." Sorcerer is a good hybrid melee/ranged character. Personally, I only melee to get combat advantage from flanking. Your paragon path will make you want to melee for those powers too, but don't pass up on ranged powers.

 

[WalterKovacs]

On the subject of eyebite: Dilletante doesn't give you the ability to use implements for that class. So, you wouldn't get an implement bonus whether you are using a pact blade, a rod, or a wand. So it's a matter of accepting that it would drop in value over time [the bard power they suggest, being a weapon attack, doesn't have that problem].

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, there is the interesting question of would a pact blade dagger wielded by a sorcerer provide an enhancement bonus to a warlock power? The pact blade property says "This blade functions as a warlock implement, adding its enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls for warlock powers that use implements."

Now, NORMALLY only a warlock can use a warlock implement, but in this case the implement is both a sorcerer implement AND a warlock implement. Nothing in the text actually says you have to be a warlock to benefit from this property, it is simply assumed, I would guess, that nobody else could use it as such. Since the sorcerer violates that assumption, it would appear technically he would be able to benefit.

Multiclassing always raises these corner cases. You are highly advised to run them past your DM to find out how he's going to rule on whatever you want to do.

 

[Asmor]

Good idea on Guiding Strike. Thanks.

I'm almost positive the pact dagger wouldn't work for eyebite without taking the warlock multiclass feat, though it's worth noting that that's an interesting idea for a sorcerer/warlock or even a bard/sorcerer/rogue/warlock...

 

[RyvenCedrylle]

May I suggest instead going with Dragon Magic instead of Chaos Magic? If you do, Lightning Breath and Burning Spray do damage to things that hit you which is going to happen often if you're playing around in melee a lot. I would suggest Storm Walk as the other one since if lets you shift, but you would probably do ok with either Dragonfrost (push) or Chaos Bolt. Chaos Bolt is actually nice if you have another high CHA or WIS character around as you can use them to end the careening effect.

As for your other at-will,

1) Bolstering Strike is your friend. You don't care about the damage, you want the freaking temporary HP, so long as you have some WIS to throw around.

2) If you can talk your DM into letting you use CHA for either Dire Radiance or Hellish Rebuke, you could look at these. Make people pay for hitting you or keep them at arm's length.

3) Guiding Strike isn't bad, but I would be more concerned with my own safety playing this character. Look at Vicious Mockery to save your hide.

4) You could also of course do Sly Flourish to make good use of all those stat mods, but I would be very wary of having a third at-will with just straight damage and no 'toys.'

 

[themilkman]

May I suggest instead going with Dragon Magic instead of Chaos Magic? If you do, Lightning Breath and Burning Spray do damage to things that hit you which is going to happen often if you're playing around in melee a lot. I would suggest Storm Walk as the other one since if lets you shift, but you would probably do ok with either Dragonfrost (push) or Chaos Bolt. Chaos Bolt is actually nice if you have another high CHA or WIS character around as you can use them to end the careening effect.

As for your other at-will,

1) Bolstering Strike is your friend. You don't care about the damage, you want the freaking temporary HP, so long as you have some WIS to throw around.

2) If you can talk your DM into letting you use CHA for either Dire Radiance or Hellish Rebuke, you could look at these. Make people pay for hitting you or keep them at arm's length.

3) Guiding Strike isn't bad, but I would be more concerned with my own safety playing this character. Look at Vicious Mockery to save your hide.

4) You could also of course do Sly Flourish to make good use of all those stat mods, but I would be very wary of having a third at-will with just straight damage and no 'toys.'

Being able to use the appropriate implement is the issue here. The powers you suggested are good ones, but they don't use the staff or dagger, which are the only two implements available to a sorcerer. If he isn't able to use the implements, then his to-hit is going to be lower because he isn't going to get an enhancement bonus from using a magical implement.

Bolstering strike is a better idea, since it's a weapon power, but it isn't arcane, so it can't get sorcerer bonus damage. Also, since Charisma and Dexterity are going to have high scores, it would be advisable to put points into Con to buff HP and bump up the FORT defense, instead of putting points into WIS. Thus, Bolstering strike won't provide more than 1 or 2 temporary HP, even at high level.

So I say that Guiding Strike is still the best choice of half-elf bonus at-will.

 

[franzel]

Chaos Bolt is actually nice if you have another high CHA or WIS character around as you can use them to end the careening effect.

You actually don't need to stop it. The secondary attack is "may" not "must." It's arguable as worded in the PHB2 but Mike Donais, the designer of the power, clarified it on the CharOp board earlier this week:

Wizards Community - View Single Post - Sorcerer Optimization Notes

He was replying to this post:

Wizards Community - View Single Post - Sorcerer Optimization Notes

 

[franzel]

Feats:
Rogue Multiclass
Sorcererous Blade Channeling
Implement Expertise
Leather Armor Training
Action Surge
Slaying Action

I would drop Slaying Action and take Nimble Blade, personally. Slaying Action will come up every other combat for an extra +10.5 damage at that time. I think you'll find Nimble Blade to be more effective in the long run.

Also, keep in mind that if you take a Weapon power for your dilettante ability, you don't get to use Implement Expertise to hit (although you would get Nimble Blade). You would also have to take Weapon Expertise [Light Blade].