Melee Training - Good or Bad?

[Saeviomagy]

Even with prime strength, a basic attack is inferior to a power attack (and if it isn't, then there's something wrong with that power).

So this only really comes into play when only a basic attack is possible. That means AoOs and granted attacks.

Powers that grant attacks work as follows: the granter will never pick someone who's basic attack sucks to gain an extra basic attack. He'll pick someone in the party who has a good basic attack, and there is almost always one party member who does. If there are zero party members who do, he'll pick a different power. So you're not getting any gain here except a small amount of flexibility.

For AoOs, it's going to increase your ability to act like a defender. For a lot of non-defenders, that is a bad thing. To get serious mileage out of this, there's a lot more than a single feat investment that needs to be made.

 

[Danceofmasks]

But ... my wizard wants to Coup de Grace with a greataxe after casting sleep!
(Ok, I've played 3 wizards, and none of them have ever cast sleep, but the point is there for those who do?)

 

[1of3]

I'd rather Coup de Grace with a Wizard At-Will. Your implement is probably better on a critical hit than a random axe. OK, I admit. The axe is way cooler.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, for starters they're prone ... which isn't ideal if you're zapping them with a ranged attack (in effect mitigating your lack of proficiency if you're awkwardly swinging).
And ... it's not a random axe ...
See, it's a hand-me-down vicious greataxe (from that other PC who just got a shiny new weapon) ... the implement may be one plus higher, but all them extra dice on the hand-me-down weapon are D12s ... high crit isn't too shabby either.

 

[Runestar]

While I don't have a problem with this feat (DracoSuave did a very good job of outlining why - essentially for most classes Expertise is much better), the above isn't the reason why.

Because if you were going to take the feat, I don't see why you would ever take it for an ability score that isn't your primary...

How often would my wizard need to resort to melee with his quarterstaff?

 

[DracoSuave]

If they're a wizard/fighter staff-expert build...

...strangely often.

 

[Runestar]

If they're a wizard/fighter staff-expert build...

...strangely often.

So one use would be to allow a gish type PC to focus on int and possibly dump str, compared to a pre-PHB2 gish character who would likely want/need decent str and int?

Starting to look more and more attractive by the moment...

 

[cmbarona]

Two points:

1) MBAs are also useful for charging, so suddenly all of the Rogue charging bonuses in Martial Power actually become useful (I was incredibly unimpressed with them before now).

2) OA's are a defender's schtick? Why? Good OAs deter enemies from moving, but even if they connect, they can just as easily be a striker booster. I've always considered OAs just to be extra potential damage, modified by role depending on how the OAs themselves are modified. E.g., Fighters make them defenderish by stopping movement, strikers can make them strikerish by boosting damage from them. If my Warlord uses HBO to do a Furious Smash with an OA, then the OA is leaderish.

 

[DracoSuave]

Two points:

1) MBAs are also useful for charging, so suddenly all of the Rogue charging bonuses in Martial Power actually become useful (I was incredibly unimpressed with them before now).

I'll concede this, however usually rogues are looking for a surgical strike, not the quickest charge. They rely on position a -lot-. Charging doesn't lead to flanking that often.

2) OA's are a defender's schtick? Why? Good OAs deter enemies from moving, but even if they connect, they can just as easily be a striker booster. I've always considered OAs just to be extra potential damage, modified by role depending on how the OAs themselves are modified. E.g., Fighters make them defenderish by stopping movement, strikers can make them strikerish by boosting damage from them. If my Warlord uses HBO to do a Furious Smash with an OA, then the OA is leaderish.

Strikers are less likely to incur OAs from many monsters because if the monster is adjacent to a striker, he's probably near the target he wants to beat up on. Monsters tend to want to get away from defenders and go towards strikers, as to take out the major threats. OAs can be -useful- for a striker, I'll admit, provided that striker is a melee-striker, meaning a Melee-Rogue (see above), an Avenger (who -do- want Melee Training), or a Barbarian or Ranger (Str-based, don't need it, not relevant). Warlocks and Sorcerers and Bow-rangers tend to be in a bad position if they're in OA position.

So, for strikers in OA range, see above discussion on Rogues and Avengers.

 

[WalterKovacs]

I'll concede this, however usually rogues are looking for a surgical strike, not the quickest charge. They rely on position a -lot-. Charging doesn't lead to flanking that often.

That might be why they gave them the paragon feat that allows them to end their charge in any square adjacent to the target. Of course, you'd probably want the artful dodger to avoid OAs ... and now with melee training you can charge without having to favor strength over charisma.

Strikers are less likely to incur OAs from many monsters because if the monster is adjacent to a striker, he's probably near the target he wants to beat up on. Monsters tend to want to get away from defenders and go towards strikers, as to take out the major threats. OAs can be -useful- for a striker, I'll admit, provided that striker is a melee-striker, meaning a Melee-Rogue (see above), an Avenger (who -do- want Melee Training), or a Barbarian or Ranger (Str-based, don't need it, not relevant). Warlocks and Sorcerers and Bow-rangers tend to be in a bad position if they're in OA position.

So, for strikers in OA range, see above discussion on Rogues and Avengers.

Sorcerers do have some melee-ish ability, or at least need to be in melee range with the various close attacks, and the dagger casting used for touch attacks. The con-lock, especially if they are getting HP from the infernal pact, can get up close and personal too in order to benefit from prime shot.

Still, Rogues and Avengers are probably the ones that will benefit the most, in addition to the Chaladin. Outside of them it will probably be more for concept/multiclass type ideas, like wanting their spiral tower wizard with a sword to be able to use the sword a bit more often, etc.