Melee Training - Good or Bad?

[DracoSuave]

Exactly. It's not a bad feat, but it's not a must-have.

 

[Keenath]

Exactly. It's not a bad feat, but it's not a must-have.

In general it isn't a must-have. I'd be willing to say that at this point Charisma Paladins don't get a first level feat, they just get Martial Training. And the Avenger that doesn't pick this up will probably be a rarity, especially when an OA may well be getting boosted by a Censure.

Actually, that's a good question -- if a guy moves away from my Censure of Pursuit avenger, does that Censure bonus activate before or after the OA I get for him moving away from me?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Seems to me it is really HUGELY valuable to rogues, since it gives you the perfect surprise move, charge out of a hidden position and make an MBA with CA, which can now be a dex or cha based attack. This tactic was fairly ineffective before unless you were a str based rogue, which could definitely cause MAD problems. Now you can pretty much forget about str. It won't revolutionize rogues, they had other options, but it certainly means your sneaky Artful Dodger rogue can move in to make a potent attack with combat advantage. A lot more potent than throwing.

 

[Xris Robin]

... so, I had a weird thought. Dwarven Battlerager with 16 STR and 18 CON takes this to switch his basic attacks to CON.

 

[WalterKovacs]

In general it isn't a must-have. I'd be willing to say that at this point Charisma Paladins don't get a first level feat, they just get Martial Training.

Well, perhaps after getting a weapon proficiency for an exotic weapon, weapon expertise, healing hands, and maybe a channel divinity feat. Not to mention some racial feats.

And the Avenger that doesn't pick this up will probably be a rarity, especially when an OA may well be getting boosted by a Censure.

Admitedly, the Avenger I'm going to play will likely take this eventually. However, it would again only be after taking weapon proficiency, weapon expertise, leather armor prof, improved armor of faith, and maybe the feat that improves their censure. And again, that leaves out multiclass and racial feats.

So, while they'll definitely be taking the feats, I wouldn't assume too many to be taking it as their first feat.

 

[gribble]

... so, I had a weird thought. Dwarven Battlerager with 16 STR and 18 CON takes this to switch his basic attacks to CON.

Meh. This guy is going to be pumping Str for all his other attacks anyway, so it's only ever going to be a +1 difference.

Taking Expertise (+1 to hit with all attacks) is likely to be much more valuable to this guy than +1 to hit and + 1 damage with basic attacks only. Especially past 15th level.

As others have said, it's really only useful if:
1) You can see you character making a lot of basic attacks (charging, OAs and granted attacks).
2) You don't already have Str primary or another basic attack based on your primary ability score.

I.e.: very good for Avengers (assuming you have a tactical leader to grant him extra attacks), Rogues (maybe for granted attacks and charges) and Chaladins (arguably... for OAs, given their mark doesn't require you to make a basic attack).

Otherwise it's really only good for flavor (a la the Invoker upthread - I really like that character BTW)!

 

[Keenath]

Seems to me it is really HUGELY valuable to rogues, since it gives you the perfect surprise move, charge out of a hidden position and make an MBA with CA... A lot more potent than throwing.

Why is that more potent than throwing, exactly? The difference between a charging dagger attack and a thrown dagger attack is a +1 attack bonus, which really pales when you realize you can use an at-will (or even an encounter power) with a thrown dagger. I'll take a sly flourish before making a charge attack. (It's not even as if you need a charge to get into flanking position... if you're hidden, you have combat advantage already.)

... so, I had a weird thought. Dwarven Battlerager with 16 STR and 18 CON takes this to switch his basic attacks to CON.

Depends on if you're planning to constantly bump Con as well as Strength. If you put any points elsewhere, you're going to be back at a tied score, at which point you don't really need the feat. I guess you could just retrain it off at that point, though.

Well, perhaps after getting a weapon proficiency for an exotic weapon, weapon expertise, healing hands, and maybe a channel divinity feat. Not to mention some racial feats.

Seems to me a defender owes it to himself to get this as soon as possible. It's right in line with what you're supposed to be doing. Healing Hands? Superior weapons? A big to-hit bonus on OAs means you're doing a better job of hurting people who try to wander off and punch the mage. All that other stuff is nice, but pretty much subsidiary to your defender role.

Admitedly, the Avenger I'm going to play will likely take this eventually. However, it would again only be after taking weapon proficiency, weapon expertise, leather armor prof, improved armor of faith, and maybe the feat that improves their censure. And again, that leaves out multiclass and racial feats.

So many of your powers and abilities are angled towards grabbing a guy and keeping him there (stickiness!) that I would expect OAs to be pretty valuable. I'll have to see how it goes in actual play, but I would tend to expect this to be better for you than Improved Armor of Faith or a +1 damage (which is what a superior weapon is).

 

[Saeviomagy]

In general it isn't a must-have. I'd be willing to say that at this point Charisma Paladins don't get a first level feat, they just get Martial Training. And the Avenger that doesn't pick this up will probably be a rarity, especially when an OA may well be getting boosted by a Censure.

Charisma paladins don't need the feat: I can think of plenty of other feats that one might want first. I mean, don't get me wrong - it's nice. But it's far from a 100% guaranteed pick.

I imagine the same is true for an avenger. Actually - doesn't the avenger want his foe to run so he can chase? Good OAs are going to discourage a foe from running.

Actually, that's a good question -- if a guy moves away from my Censure of Pursuit avenger, does that Censure bonus activate before or after the OA I get for him moving away from me?

I think the opportunity attack happens before he leaves the square, so unless censure is also an interrupt, then it won't be up for the OA.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

So many of your powers and abilities are angled towards grabbing a guy and keeping him there (stickiness!) that I would expect OAs to be pretty valuable. I'll have to see how it goes in actual play, but I would tend to expect this to be better for you than Improved Armor of Faith or a +1 damage (which is what a superior weapon is).

Actually, they have some powers that prevent or punish an enemy when they try to get away from you...OA's don't really to be that necessary for them to operate.

 

[Josep]

Why is that more potent than throwing, exactly? The difference between a charging dagger attack and a thrown dagger attack is a +1 attack bonus, which really pales when you realize you can use an at-will (or even an encounter power) with a thrown dagger. I'll take a sly flourish before making a charge attack. (It's not even as if you need a charge to get into flanking position... if you're hidden, you have combat advantage already.)

Well, remember that some rogues don't use daggers (heresy, I know), although they tend to be brutal scoundrels so they can get light weapon mastery. There are also some nice feats that give bonuses an charges -- Surprising Charge: +1[W] on charge with light blade/spear, Powerful Charge: +2 damage on charge, Eladrin feats that let you teleport/recharge Fey Step).

Also, the rogue being in melee helps the party with flanking. In some parties, that helps. Riposte Strike also becomes an option for artful dodgers with melee training.

All in all, depending on party composition (a warlord), the DM style (frequency of provoking OAs), character concept, and party syngergies (Agile Opportunist + controller), melee training ranges from alright to very good.

The only case I see it as a must take feat is when one's DM constantly provokes OAs.