log in or register to remove this ad

 

Mercurial Greatsword

reapersaurus

First Post
Carceri said:
Statstically proven... LOL. By who?

And don't give me that crap about paying the extra feat. You gotta be kidding me.
It doesn;t matter by who - the numbers were crunched, and statistically, it was fairly well shown (e.g. proven) that the benefit of a 2d6, 20x4 weapon was not much better than a 2d6, 19-20, x2 weapon. Certainly not worth a feat. I think they even compared it with Weapon Focus, and saw that that was better than MG.

And I can't believe you're dismissing the palpable cost of a feat to use it properly.
Just because you're using the one PC in your campaign as a comparison, doesn't mean that's how the feat should be defined by.

And what's abusive about this PC of yours, anyway?
He's got a 18-20 crit weapon, after taking Improved Crit:MG, and he can have an almost-guaranteed x4 crit, once per day with Power Critical, right?
You should see a Lance-wielding, Spiritied-Charge-using, Rhino-Hide-wearing horse-rider - he'd terrify your group, apparently, and send you curling up in fetal throes of "broken!" "Munchkin!" "he can do that on EVERY charge attack?"
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

ColonelHardisson

What? Me Worry?
Carceri said:


I never implied that the Weapon Master prestige class was overpowered. Where did you see me say that? I offered the Weapon Master as an example of how the merc greatsword can be abused. Get it? It isn't so much the merc greatsword itself, it's combinations that exist to be used by players to fully abuse it.

Yes, critical hits have their fair share of limitations...against undead, oozes and constructs? While those types of creatures can be fun to pit againts a party now and then, I don't necessarily enjoy running whole adventures setup that way.

I believe what was meant is that the weapon in not unbalanced, which was in answer to your assertion that it was. The poster in question was saying that the Weapon Master concept has been used to try to assert that the class can make any weapon appear unbalanced. Over the past couple of years, we've seen this method used for a number of different weapons.
 


Iced Tea

First Post
the Mecurial Greatsword comes from Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun, just thought i would let you know since im sure no one else knows that.
 

Iced Tea

First Post
BTW, i have never read the series and just wanted to be the tenth or so person to point out where it was from :D. the merc. sword has been reduced in the errata, if you want to know just ask incase these people have posted all of the aspects about it already, im to lazy to fnish the thread.
 

genshou

First Post
Well... it can be a munchkin sword...

I'm afraid I must agree with the people who say it IS balanced. Six months ago, I did about 90 notebook pgs. of fighter analysis, purely mathematical, and do you know what I learned? That only a fighter who uses TWO weapons is truly powerful, and the fact that they cannot use a shield (EXCEPTION: Animated) helps balance somewhat. Still, Monkey Grip: MG to use one in the main hand, and a mercurial longsword in the other. Now THAT creates a munchkin. I created Galahad just to test this concept. When he got his MG enchanted fully, this is what it was: +1 keen with all four bursts (acidic burst is either in FRCS or some supplemental book). His AVERAGE damage when wielding the MG two-handed was 244 on a crit (when he used the Weapon Master's increased multiplier) and rougly 215-220 one-handed. He was a tempest first, though, so instead of increased multiplier he got an excessive amounts of off-hand damage. Of course, I would never let a player use a character like Galahad in the first place. I would be paying enough attention to see the early warning signs.

So what is my point? Well, to illustrate a little better, using my latest fighter. I decided I wanted a so-called "maxer" instead of my usual Lasher, who can kick the crap out of a maxer due to strategy and clever feat choices most of the time, by the way. So, I made Gralck, a half-orc Fighter/Weapon Master. Only instead of using an "overpowered," exotic weapon, I used a falchion, essentially an extra-long scimitar. And Gralck is deadly with it. Once, I created Legaraviel Meliamne, a gray elf Ranger/Tempest who used TWF with a heavy pick/light pick. After using him, all I have to say is that rangers CAN kick ass. I could have done the same thing with a fighter, but... fighters don't get Hide as a class skill, and let's just say he also used sniping occasionally with his MC longbow (18 Str), and the poor NPCs suffered once they found him and closed into melee range.

So, the point is, I can make a weapon master (or tempest) deadly with any decent weapon, not just the so-called "overpowered" ones. So don't think someone is a munchkin just because they want to use an exotic weapon. Some munchkins (such as my friend Calvin) can make a killing machine out of a DAGGER. Don't just criticize everything powerful. I tell my players they can use the harm spell as many times as they want, but villains tend to spread the word about PC tactics, and I as DM will use their favorite tactics against them. If they want to use mercurial greatswords or harm, show them the other side of it by making an evil fighter who uses one, too. Or use Sunder and Improved Sunder at long range, with a duom-wielding weapon master.

As for the MG of the planes, would you punish the players for buying bane (abberation) weapons in a beholder war campaign? Well, you might make the beholders tougher somehow, or perhaps slightly lower the experience awards. If not all PCs have these weapons, however, that can make the others feel like they're being punished for someone else's actions. My best advice to you is this: send them against an ogre mage monk or whatnot. Why is the ogre mage exploring the planes - and most importantly - working with their foes? That question could be the source of many adventures for the PCs - adventures in which perhaps a big outsider-slaying sword might not be so useful.

My thanks to everyone in here for not turning this place into a huge insult-fling. The "Japanese Sword Corrections and Additions" board didn't do such a good job. In other words, kudos to all of you for being civil, and keep it up. We're getting some good opposition in here without the dirty fighting.
 

Carceri

First Post
It doesn;t matter by who - the numbers were crunched, and statistically, it was fairly well shown (e.g. proven) that the benefit of a 2d6, 20x4 weapon was not much better than a 2d6, 19-20, x2 weapon. Certainly not worth a feat. I think they even compared it with Weapon Focus, and saw that that was better than MG.

You're right, it doesn't matter because obviously whoever crunched those numbers is baked. Let's make a fighter, he's 9th level, has a 20 STR, is specialized, has improved crit and has a +2 mercurial greatsword. Then we make another fighter - this fighter is identical in every way to the munchkin greatsword wielder except that he uses a standard greatsword.

At minimum, the critical hit by the munchkin greatsword user will be 52 points (initiating a Fort Save 15 of die if you're using the death by massive damage rules) - this is not accounting for things like power attack being stacked on. The standard greatsword wielder does a minimum of 26 (half of what the munchkin does). Even a maxed out crit by the standard greatsword wielder only does 46 points, and an average crit by the standard greatsword wielder, backed by 5 points of power attack is only 44 points unless you're playing 3.5 rules, I guess.

The difference in crit damage, is, IMO, unbalanced. Where does the great axe figure into all of this? What's the point of even using a great axe when you can just use a munchkin greatsword? Oh, that's right! That one measley feat! LOL.

You should see a Lance-wielding, Spiritied-Charge-using, Rhino-Hide-wearing horse-rider - he'd terrify your group, apparently, and send you curling up in fetal throes of "broken!" "Munchkin!" "he can do that on EVERY charge attack?"

Not quite, snapperhead. First of all, mounted combat through dungeons and certain types of terrain doesn't always work, secondly, it takes three feats to make some sort Spirited Charge specialist. LOL. Not only that, a heavy lance does what, 1d8? PFFFTT!! So we take the same 9th level fighter as I mentioned above, set him up with feats, specialize him in lance, etc.. His minimal crits do 16 pts. more than the munchkin greatsword guy, sure, but on average the munchkin sword wielder is doing more damage because he's getting more attacks instead of a single charge attack each round. So how is this more of a nightmare than the munchkin great sword wielder? Puleeeze. Get a clue.
 

Carceri

First Post
I started this thread as a rant. This wasn't a thread asking "Help! What do I do about min/maxers?" I've been playing this game since 1984. Yes, I am an old school game geek. Not trying to be rude here, but it seems some people are starting to get just a little condescending with me. I don't need advice on how to deal with rules abusers, how to spot a munchkin, or even how to effectively challenge my players. It's a drag that I have to go to certain lengths to challenge my players based on one certain individual at times, but I can deal with it.

I can feel a flame war ensuing so I guess it's best I just shut up now before some feathers get ruffled.

Peace

Out
 
Last edited:

Seule

Explorer
I think the correct rant (and one that I use occasionally) is against Power Critical. Particularly with any high multiplier weapon, it's a killer. A game I play in has a half-orc Paladin with a Great Axe. When she declares her Smite-Power Critical combo, things die. Similarly, a Mercurial Weapon or Scythe would be very deadly.
Basically, I have no intention of allowing Power Critical in any game I run. It's just not right. The character described above (MG wielder, Weaponmaster) would probably not be nearly as nasty without the ability to cause crits at will.

--Seule
 

reapersaurus

First Post
wow.
It's amazing how some people almost point out their errors by themselves, without us having to. :)

Before I point ouit what you're not understanding about D&D, Carceri - I'd like to state that you don't feel a flame war going on, because this board doesn't tolerate flame wars.

But you're new, so you wouldn't know that.

You also wouldn't know that in the rules forum, if you're going to claim something is broken or unbalanced, to be taken seriously, you'd better back up your claim with some numbers, and not just your experience, opinion, or testimonials.

So get some rest, lurk a bit more to understand where you are, and then enage in civil conversation about the rules issue at hand, please. I'll let your insulting words go, this time.
(note: I thought it quite illuminating how you thought you actually left before ruffling feathers)

About your oversight:
You seem to be under the impression that we are comparing crit damage.
We aren't.
We're comparing average damage.
When comparing average damage, you need to factor in the probabilities involved. And while this may be news to you, a 19-20 weapon crits more often than a x20 weapon.
Therefore, you need to calculate the average damage per weapon is, factoring in the % likelihood for a crit on any given roll (leave Power Crit out of these comparisons - it's a one-trick pony).

And guess what - these calculations HAVE been done, and the results by much better and able mathmeticians than me concluded that the MG is not out of balance with a greatsword, or other high-crit weapons.

But I don't see how you're going to understand this approach, since it is based on a non-biased, objective analysis of your statement, and not based on supposition, personal experience, and ignoring statistics.

It also doesn't matter how many people tell you this information, or how we tell it - you KNOW the MG is unbalanced, so don't listen to reason.

I'd suggest listening to your elders.
 

genshou

First Post
Thank you, reapersaurus

Great screen name, btw. And of course it's more powerful. A quarterstaff in the right (usually ranger or fighter) hands is more powerful than a greataxe (10 attacks per round for a 10th-level tempest with both heads enchanted with speed), dealing 10d6 damage from all the attacks if they all hit. Then add 1.5 Str mod x5, as well as any other modifiers that apply, and it comes out far better as magic and other bonuses are added. I've done 90 pgs. of number-crunching with weapon attack rolls and damage, and found that TWF is more powerful than anything else unless you are stupid and use two daggers compared to a scythe. And most of those attacks except for perhaps the lowest attack with each weapon will almost always hit, if you are a more attack-oriented char not constantly fighting dragons. The only real time the scythe is better is against a foe with DR you can't overcome with your weapon's enhancement bonus. Now think of using, say, two scimitars, or a falchion with monkey grip and a scimitar. Certain equipment and spells are more powerful than others. That's why they cost more, or in the case of "good" spells other than harm, allow saving throws AND SR. The 15th-level wizard shouldn't be chastised for using admixed fireballs to deal 30d6 pts. of damage with a 7th-level spell. The fact that it's more powerful than other 7th-level spells is insignificant to me. I don't force all my players to be pansies hiding behind their mothers' skirts, and yet I still keep game balance. It's not as hard as certain people on this board (who I cannot name for both their honor and mine) make it seem.
 

Eridanis

Bard 7/Mod (ret) 10/Mgr 3
Moved to Rules forum.

Carceri, welcome to the ENworld boards. Please note that while you are welcome, even encouraged to state your opinions, please respect the opinions of others. Please read the FAQ, or email myself or any of the mods, with any questions.
 
Last edited:

SweeneyTodd

First Post
The issue here is synergy. Any one effect that increases critical threat range or damage multiplier isn't that bad, but stacking several together to do the same thing is unbalancing.

A fighter that has spent their feats maximizing their threat range with a given weapon is going to be *brutal* with it,when one might argue the real intent of all those bonus feats is for that fighter to be well-rounded.

The obvious balance response is to occasionally take away that specialized weapon, but then the overspecialized character feels frustrated. It's almost like superhero games where the powered armor character is captured and temporarily loses his armor. Hey, there has to be some penalty for that kind of thing, but the player feels useless until they get it back.
 

CrimsonTemplar

First Post
Two Words for you:

Sunder it.

If the guy's being a real pain for you with his uber-twink weapon of doom, take it away and don't let him get another (at the very least don't allow him to get another MGS of the Planes).

If that's not a viable option then you're only real option, IMHO, is to crank up the EL's. Or, do the Living Greyhawk thing and template the living hell out of the critters you throw at them. Change the creature's type to something other than Outsider. Maybe the bad guys they're fighting against call in some outside help...nothing like some high powered mercs that are as nasty as the PC's (remember to make them Neutral too, just because they're working for the bad guys doesn't make the evil).

Remember, the game's supposed to be fun for you as well as them.
 
Last edited:

ColonelHardisson

What? Me Worry?
Carceri said:
I started this thread as a rant. This wasn't a thread asking "Help! What do I do about min/maxers?" I've been playing this game since 1984. Yes, I am an old school game geek. Not trying to be rude here, but it seems some people are starting to get just a little condescending with me.

I was trying to help, and I think almost everyone else was, too.

By the way, I've been playing since 1979. I graduated high school in 1984. I guess I'm old school also.
 


Advertisement2

Advertisement4

Top