D&D 4E Merric's thoughts on 4e

[Wulf Ratbane]

Frankly, I'm withholding judgment

You are?

until I see the solid rules; not what they intend for the rules to result in.

See you in June.

 

[med stud]

Med Stud,

AD&D as a base system was fairly balanced as I recall. It was no more unbalanced than any other system. I'm afraid you have misconstrued my statements about the balance of AD&D v. 3.5. I am saying that AD&D was fairly easy to play out to high levels without extreme amounts of work by the DM and Players. In effect though, generally, intelligent people play these games. They will find ways to break the system any which way you go. I gave up on game balance loooooooong ago. No such thing.

As for the market research questions, yeah I do question their abilities. I've seen and participated in their surveys. The resulting actions they take however, don't mesh with their surveys. Besides, if implementation from market research was as easy as you think, GM and Ford would still have a stranglehold on the U.S. auto market.

OK then I misunderstood what you meant by balance. My view of balance is how well do one class or race compare to another and in that aspect 1st and 2nd edition was very imbalanced. The races being balanced against humans by level limits were one of the worst ideas ever IMO, you function at 100% effectiveness until you hit a certain level, then you are out of the game (if you want to have levels). Wizards were so much more powerful than fighters that it wasn't funny at high levels and very weak at low levels. The thief could be replaced by spell casters by lvl 5-6. Above lvl 9 it was essentially meaningless to advance as a fighter; sure the lower THAC0 is nice but otherwise it's just 3 HP per level.

For ease of running: I can imagine that 1st and 2nd edition was much easier to run than 3e at high levels. I won't protest that.

Ford and GM is another matter as other car manufacturers are a more serious competition to them than the other RPGs are to D&D. I consider WotC to be the Microsoft of RPGs more than the GM of RPGs.

About the surveys; I haven't participated in them but I don't think WotC rolls a dice to see what races they exclude etc. They must lean on something. If they implament it optimally is another matter but I think they most likely hit their mark (as shaky as they can be considered, most 4e ideas got about 90 % approval at the polls in this forum, for example).

 

[Hussar]

Ty, you keep saying balance. I do not think that it means what you think it means.

 

[Ty]

Hussar, yes, it is a poor choice of words. I do however, see multiple different potential items of "balance" in D&D. Class balance, game balance, power curve balance, etc.

 

[hong]

Great. History does include the Gettysburg address. You get a gold star. If history was unimportant to D&D, then why did WotC release the 30 Years of D&D compendium and why is there a "History of the Miniatures" on the frontpages of the D&D website?

To make money off a cash cow, as opposed to doing real work.

It's because the nostalgia and history of the game is what keeps bringing back the old folks like me.

And eventually, old folks die.

You know, the one's with the stable careers (cash) breeding the next generation of geeks to inherit the hobby...

You mean the ones playing World of Warcraft?

 

[Hussar]

I <3 hong with all my body including my pee pee.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that while nostalgia IS a factor in keeping a brand alive (Goodman Games for example), gaming companies that don't innovate and keep trying new things fall by the wayside.

For once, the designers seem to have the cojones to stand up and try to really make a new edition instead of simply retreading the same water time and time again. There's a name for that, it's called Palladium.

 

[Ty]

Hong,

Witty. Very witty. You should do stand up sometime.

It's good all you "young whipper snappers" have a place to congregate and practice your comedy routines.

As for the circle of D&D players I know, none play World of Warcraft. None intend on purchasing 4th Edition unless it happens to be extremely good. We all happen to have multiple children and incomes in the top 10% for the country though. Wow, Hong is wrong again.

However, while you all are enjoying the "internet gangbanging" so much, I'd ask you to refer back to my original post regarding a lead designer's comments instead of attempting to engage me in trying to futilely defending a game system from 1980, 1988, etc.

ACTUAL POINT HERE FOR THOSE WITH SHORT ATTENTION SPANS:

It doesn't cause anyone here any concern whatsoever that a lead designer for D&D entirely dismissed two editions of the game; didn't even play them?

Oh yes, that's right. This isn't about engaging in an honest discussion as to D&D's past and where it is headed. This is a stand up comedy routine.

Ciao.

 

[Mean DM]

It doesn't cause anyone here any concern whatsoever that a lead designer for D&D entirely dismissed two editions of the game; didn't even play them?

No.

 

[Cadfan]

It doesn't cause anyone here any concern whatsoever that a lead designer for D&D entirely dismissed two editions of the game; didn't even play them?

Didn't bother me any.

As for the circle of D&D players I know, none play World of Warcraft. None intend on purchasing 4th Edition unless it happens to be extremely good. We all happen to have multiple children and incomes in the top 10% for the country though. Wow, Hong is wrong again.

Do you think this might be a feature more of you and who you hang out with, than of the D&D playing public?

 

[Wormwood]

It doesn't cause anyone here any concern whatsoever that a lead designer for D&D entirely dismissed two editions of the game; didn't even play them?

Nope.

Relax.

 

[mhensley]

It's good all you "young whipper snappers" have a place to congregate and practice your comedy routines.

For the record, I am not young (42), started playing with the holmes edition of basic, and am really looking forward to 4e.

As for the circle of D&D players I know, none play World of Warcraft. None intend on purchasing 4th Edition unless it happens to be extremely good. We all happen to have multiple children and incomes in the top 10% for the country though. Wow, Hong is wrong again.

Your anecdotal evidence is pointless. Most of my group are avid players of WoW. In fact, they played WoW before they played D&D. There are also a large number of WoW players at my office. I don't know anyone there who plays D&D.

It doesn't cause anyone here any concern whatsoever that a lead designer for D&D entirely dismissed two editions of the game; didn't even play them?

The designers of 3rd edition came from other game lines, didn't they? Mage and Rolemaster, I believe. You'll note a large number of the changes made in 3rd edition look suspiciously like the mechanics from those games.

So far, I like most of what I've heard of the coming changes in 4e. But the proof is in the play. We'll see if they finally get it right this time.

 

[Doc_Klueless]

It's good all you "young whipper snappers" have a place to congregate and practice your comedy routines.

Cool! I'm still a young whipper-snapper at 40! I've been playing D&D since '81. So, while I might not be the most venerable member of the D&D playing crowd, I ain't no beginner either. Or, in other words, don't assume you know who is posting until you've met them. It ain't kosher.

As for the circle of D&D players I know, none play World of Warcraft.

In my last group of 7 (Hi, David!), only one did not play WoW. Yet we still managed to meet for our bi-weekly game. Fact is, the only reason I stopped playing was that David moved waaaaaay across town and I went through a divorce that required a lot of my time.

None intend on purchasing 4th Edition unless it happens to be extremely good. We all happen to have multiple children and incomes in the top 10% for the country though.

I might not be in the top 10% of the country, but I make a six digit income and have a kid... What's the point of this?

It doesn't cause anyone here any concern whatsoever that a lead designer for D&D entirely dismissed two editions of the game; didn't even play them?

If said designer was the ONLY designer of 4e, I might have some qualms about it. But seeing as he's surrounded by very capable people with proven track records, I'm not too worried about it. From the posts done by current and previous WotC employees I can pretty much figure out that WotC is not a dictatorship and the "lead" designer is more of a coordinator of effort of the other designers while giving some input of his own.

Plus, I think the game really could use at least one good set of fresh eyes that aren't clouded over with rose tinted glasses. You know, someone who's willing to question the baggage hauled around by D&D.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

ACTUAL POINT HERE FOR THOSE WITH SHORT ATTENTION SPANS:

It doesn't cause anyone here any concern whatsoever that a lead designer for D&D entirely dismissed two editions of the game; didn't even play them?

Oh yes, that's right. This isn't about engaging in an honest discussion as to D&D's past and where it is headed. This is a stand up comedy routine.

Ciao.

Not at all. If all of them did, I would be upset, but...

Other people in this thread have complained about the initial movie for 4E insulting prior editions. Here's the thing. I thought it was clear that they kid because they love. They were putting themselves into a tradition of DnD kvetching and dynamism. DnD as a product of history was in no danger.

And within that context?

I am very comfortable with someone who dismissed two editions. Not because I hate those editions, but because the way he phrased that comment made it clear that he cares about the Hobby and how the brand works within it.

If we want DnD to keep its traditions and its histories and work with them rather than stew in them, then we want the brand to evolve in terms of the hobby and not just in terms of itself.

Or at least we should want at least one of its lead designers to think that way some of the time.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

For the record, I am not young (42), started playing with the holmes edition of basic, and am really looking forward to 4e.

I'm 30, started playing one of the mid-80s versions of Basic, played through all the subsequent editions, plus many of the assorted the d20 spin-offs, and I'm looking forward to 4E.

Your anecdotal evidence is pointless. Most of my group are avid players of WoW. In fact, they played WoW before they played D&D. There are also a large number of WoW players at my office. I don't know anyone there who plays D&D.

His anecdotal evidence is pointless. My group range in age from early 20s to early 30s. None of them play WoW. We're looking forward to 4E. My previous group were all mid-20s, and maybe one of them played WoW, but wasn't a "career player". They're looking forward to 4E.

Guess what: all our anecdotal evidence is worthless. That's the way the study of demographics works. One example does not make a data set. Ten guys who self-select to have similar experiences do not make a data set. A large number of randomly selected data points makes a data set.

 

[DaveMage]

It doesn't cause anyone here any concern whatsoever that a lead designer for D&D entirely dismissed two editions of the game; didn't even play them?

Which designer is that?


(Although, no, it doesn't bother me at all as I'm doing the same thing to 4E. )

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Been playing for over 25 years myself.

Got the gut, got the beard-- but gave up the grognard attitude with 3e.

 

[Piratecat]

Tempers, gang.

It's fine to be funny, but treat one another with respect. Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean you have to attack him, and just because someone is disagreeing with you doesn't mean they're necessarily insulting you.

So, deep breath (with maybe a little smidgen of the ignore feature.) It's an interesting discussion. No one needs to get personal in order to try and prove they're correct.

 

[Irda Ranger]

And eventually, old folks die.

At the moment.

 

[3catcircus]

While I agree with a wait-n-see attitude, Ty *does* have a point that Heinsoo dismissed two versions of D&D. Well - not really, but the point he *didn't* make is that Heinsoo is one of the authors (excuse me - part of the Development and Editing team) for Feng Shui. *That* is what would concern me.

Don't get me wrong - I love John Woo action movies as much as any other genre, but I don't want it to be the core of D&D. Based upon the information that WotC has revealed so far, I get the sense that they want D&D to be more like Feng Shui or Exalted. Everything they've indicated leads me to believe that it will be all action, all the time. No thanks.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

It doesn't cause anyone here any concern whatsoever that a lead designer for D&D entirely dismissed two editions of the game; didn't even play them?

As many others have said, not at all. In fact, one of the things I've most enjoyed about seeing the designer blogs has been seeing them talk about all of the games that they've played that aren't D&D. As someone who hasn't been in the hobby too long, I enjoy hearing about alternate systems and gain considerable confidence from knowing that D&D 4E isn't going to be solely the result of 30-some years of intellectual incest.