Metallic Dragons: Unaligned!?

An entire group of new future DND players are going to be taught that "No Bobby, Gold Dragons are not your ally".
But that's not correct!
What they are really taught is:
"No Bobby, this particular Gold Dragon is not your ally."

Instead of having a silly all-or-nothing approach, you can now have all kinds of different gold dragon personalities. Some of them may be paragons of good and some of them may be paragons of evil. It opens up a lot more possibilities than it closes.

Also note, that metallic dragons (well, and chromatic dragons, too) could be of any alignment in the 3E Eberron setting.

And I can only repeat what I say in every thread on alignments:
4E would have been even better if they simply got rid of alignments entirely.

Take the Earthdawn/Shadowrun dragons for example: Each of them is unique. No stupid colouring scheme, no boring stereotypes. Each of them is an individual with a completely different set of goals and motivations. That's where D&D should be heading!
 

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Some of this i agree with, some of it i don't.

Instead of having a silly all-or-nothing approach, you can now have all kinds of different gold dragon personalities. Some of them may be paragons of good and some of them may be paragons of evil. It opens up a lot more possibilities than it closes.

This is what 4e should do, but maybe fails by not being explicit enough. If the stats of red dragons indicate them as being Evil, then i think most DM's will use them as such, without contemplating alternatives and alternative uses of the monsters. Which is a shame imo.


And I can only repeat what I say in every thread on alignments:
4E would have been even better if they simply got rid of alignments entirely.

preach on:)

Take the Earthdawn/Shadowrun dragons for example: Each of them is unique. No stupid colouring scheme, no boring stereotypes. Each of them is an individual with a completely different set of goals and motivations. That's where D&D should be heading!

Tropes and cliches CAN be good, as well as playing to stereotypes. Shared expectations makes storytelling easier. Just make sure sometimes to turn things around, by ex. presenting the players with a greedy, scheeming bastard of gold dragon, or a tribe of noble (but savage) orcs.
 

I've never pitted the PCs against a metallic. However, in earlier editions I've often thought that while metallics were benign to mortal races, they were benign in the same way that most humans are to, say, insects. That is, metallics were willing to let mortals be for the most part, but the vast majority of them had no real qualms killing them. Particularly if they were acting like pests (moving too close to the dragon's home, being too loud, etc.). ;) "Unaligned" is a much better descriptor for this behavior IMO, so I definitely approve.

I also do think having dragons default to unaligned makes them more likely to see actual use as enemies. Sure, creative and clever DMs can invent reasons as to why generally good parties fight good dragons, and that's great for them. Some may even be able to convincingly and compellingly pull off a "noble and grand disagreement." But that's more work than I'm willing to do.
 

Instead of having a silly all-or-nothing approach
But there IS a silly all-or-nothing approach here: ALL monsters are evil, or "unaligned/any" (i.e. potentially evil).

Some of them may be paragons of good and some of them may be paragons of evil. It opens up a lot more possibilities than it closes.
No, it doesn't, because every single other "unaligned/any" monsters already fulfills that plot niche ("some of them may be paragons of good and some of them may be paragons of evil"). Having a truly good, truly powerful creature actually would be some variety, and variety is what opens up possibilities.

In fact the only creatures I can think of that are Good with a capital G are the gods themselves, and celestial chargers. "It's strange -- the celestial chargers were always benevolent, but now they are attacking travelers on the road! We need someone to solve this mystery!" It just doesn't have the same ring to it as when applied to gold dragons.

-- 77IM
 

These sort of plots are indeed exceptions, but that's what makes them interesting. And they are not possible if the monster isn't generally good. For example, one of the reason fallen Jedi are so cool (and they are, even after it has become a cliche) is because Jedi are paragons of goodness. In previous editions of D&D, this same trope could be applied to paladins, dragons, angels, and several other creatures. Now, it's more like "WTF is this gold dragon attacking us for??? Is it a freaky mystery? No, he probably just wants our treasure, or to manipulate our society somehow. Par for the course."

I agree that most of the monsters in the Monster Manual should be evil or unaligned or any alignment. But I think the game is more interesting if there are a handful of good creatures in there too, to use in exceptional circumstances. If I were the designers I would have drawn the line at unicorns and silver and gold dragons (copper and lesser metals never seemed that "good" to me in previous editions). That's like 10 stat blocks over the course of 2 books, so like less that 5% of the stat blocks going to seldom-used good creatures.

-- 77IM

Hmm . . . part of my argument was centered on the number of good creatures that would be in the book if all Metallics were good, so only having two good dragons might well deal with that problem.

As for your main point . . . actually, I still think there's some mystery associated with a gold dragon attacking (because they are unaligned, and not evil), but I can agree, its certainly less than if their alignment was good.

I agree with part of your argument about "fallen" creatures - I think fallen Paladins and fallen Angels both were cool, although overused, and the loss of an association with good has lessened that somewhat. I say somewhat because a Paladin of Gruumsch is still certain to raise eyebrows, and you could still have an Angel of Bahamut who latter goes rogue.

On the other hand, even metallic dragons are generally self-absorbed and have motives often not understood by lesser beings; a "fallen" Gold Dragon is neither particularly cool nor particularly uncommon, I think. To be honest, I think dragons are just not particularly well suited to the good alignment, for the arguments I mentioned above. I also feel the same way about unicorns - they're certainly not evil, but they are not so much paragons of good as paragons of the natural world, which are two very different things.

Needless to say, none of this has much to do with my original argument. Still, maybe there is something here about how I see alignment, and maybe it is a point others disagree with. Unaligned seems like the "default" alignment choice - as in every creature in the real world would be unaligned. Thus it seems reasonable that many creatures might be unaligned. I also have no problem with races that evil in alignment - either because they are creatures of elemental evil, or because their culture, like that of the Drow or Orcs, is one that encourages violence, savagery, etc. Good-aligned creatures, though . . . a culture that promotes "goodness" seems somewhat redundant, since that is generally the goal of all cultures, though they have little success; worst, taken to extremes, this can breed fanaticism. That leaves only races of elemental good - angels of good dieties, etc. And it's not a list I would expect to be very long at all.
 

Tropes and cliches CAN be good, as well as playing to stereotypes. Shared expectations makes storytelling easier. Just make sure sometimes to turn things around, by ex. presenting the players with a greedy, scheeming bastard of gold dragon, or a tribe of noble (but savage) orcs.

Well, how many gold dragons do the PCs run into that one behaving in an evil fashion is a deviation from an observed trend?
 

In fact the only creatures I can think of that are Good with a capital G are the gods themselves, and celestial chargers. "It's strange -- the celestial chargers were always benevolent, but now they are attacking travelers on the road! We need someone to solve this mystery!" It just doesn't have the same ring to it as when applied to gold dragons.

-- 77IM

I'm still not sure why you can't have that with gold dragons now. They are as written mostly beneveloent and unlikely to attack travelers on the road. It would still be as much of a mystery weither good or unaligned is written in their alignment section.
 

Why are the metallic dragons unaligned (and the chromatics still evil)? Thats easy to answer. Because WotC doesn't care about world design, versimilitude, tradition and stuff like that. If it appears in the game its there to be killed for xp and treasure. Thats all a monster is useful for.

And somehow WotC thinks that, while 4E is all about reflavoring (at least thats what advertised), the word "good" on the alignment line would prevent DMs from using those monsters.

And I can only repeat what I say in every thread on alignments:
4E would have been even better if they simply got rid of alignments entirely.

But it hasn't. And as alignment still exists I expect it to be used in a responsible way instead of screwing the alignment of traditional good creatures because of an "Everything exist only to be killed" philosophy.
 
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Why are the metallic dragons unaligned (and the chromatics still evil)? Thats easy to answer. Because WotC doesn't care about world design, versimilitude, tradition and stuff like that.

Not really true is it? they have changed a lot of things, mostly in order to make things more playable and increase their number of possible uses. A generally Unaligned race can function as both a villain or an ally. Why is that a bad thing?

World design - makes designing a world easier as you don't have to shoehorn races in or accept the world design as dictated by wotc.

verisimilitude - how does alignment help verisimilitude (V) in any way? loosening restrictions would actually increase Vmax in my book.

Tradition - why is tradition for traditions sake a good thing? it is a new edition after all, for both a new and an old audience.

And somehow WotC thinks that, while 4E is all about reflavoring (at least thats what advertised), the word "good" on the alignment line would prevent DMs from using those monsters.

The alignment line in the statblock is mostly a guideline. A Good creature is mostly used as allies, evil critters as opponents and Unaligned can be whatever you need them for. IMO a gm would have most use for the evil and unaligned creatures.

But it hasn't. And as alignment still exists I expect it to be used in a responsible way instead of screwing the alignment of traditional good creatures because of an "Everything exist only to be killed" philosophy.


You only need statblocks when fighting monsters. This doesn't mean that you have to fight everything with a statblock.
Wotc has eased up on the non-combat part of the rules (relative to 3e, not prior editions to 3e). The argument is that you don't really need a detailed ruleset for non-combat task resolution, but you do need it for combat resolution. Depending on the design goals of your game ofcourse. This does not mean that you can't do anything but kill stuff and take its loot. Ofcourse it doesn't and it isn't the design goal of 4e.


Oh and can you explain the use of the word "responsible" in the part i quoted? In what way have wotc behaved irresponsibly when deciding on alignments for their monsters?
 

Why do the 4e developers refuse to add Good Aligned creatures in their monster manuals? I can tell you why. Because players aren't suppose to play evil characters so they shouldn't have to fight them. I know that's their reasoning.

The Deva Knight-Errant is Good aligned. Maybe there are more, but honestly, I never cared about that part of the stat block :)
 

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