Metamagic feats combined with Item Cration feats

[Mistwell]

Quick question: If a Bard has the craft wands feat, otherwise meets all qualifications and pay all costs to do it, can a bard use a metamagic feat they know and craft a wand, for a spell that they know, that has the metamagic effect when the wand is used?

Personally I believe they can, according to:

DMG pg. 241 under Creating Magic Items:

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Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal. For example, a caster could heighten a spell's level to increase its effectiveness, or quicken a spell to allow it to be used as a free action, placing it within an item at the higher metamagic level.
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Arguement against this use presented to me so far is that 1) somehow the spellcaster is not actually casting the spell during the item creation process, and therefore cannot apply the metamagic feat (which makes no sense to me), and 2) that only a spellcaster that prepares spells in advance could perhaps do this (also makes no sense to me), and 3) if you look at the rules for determining DC of a spell in an item, there is no mention of spell focus being usable at all.

 

[Quidam]

As far as I know anyone capable of creating an item and casting a metamagicked spell can create the item using the mm'ed spell- it's just treated as being a spell of the appropriate level for all cost computations &tc. Being a bard does not, aside from not getting those bonus feats wizards get, preclude such creation- the casting would merely be a full-round casting, since it's spontaneous magic, but that shouldn't affect item creation. Could be wrong, though- often am and with dramatic results...

 

[Henrix]

Quick question: If a Bard has the craft wands feat, otherwise meets all qualifications and pay all costs to do it, can a bard use a metamagic feat they know and craft a wand, for a spell that they know, that has the metamagic effect when the wand is used?

Of course they can.

3) if you look at the rules for determining DC of a spell in an item, there is no mention of spell focus being usable at all.

Uhm, Spell Focus is not a Metamagic feat, and cannot, under any circumstances, nor by any item creator, be placed in a wand.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Re: Re: Metamagic feats combined with Item Cration feats

Uhm, Spell Focus is not a Metamagic feat, and cannot, under any circumstances, nor by any item creator, be placed in a wand.

Also, the DC of items is determined differently.

 

[Caliber]

If you want to increase the DCs of your items, check out Enhance Item. Its in the Epic Level Handbook on page 114. Its non-Epic even!

 

[bret]

Another way to increase the DC would be with Heighten Spell. That way, you could make a wand of Lightning Bolt with a DC 16 Reflex save rather than the normal DC 14.

 

[Carthain]

Okay... Allow me to clarify things, as I think I'm the one Mistwell is talking about ^_^

Arguement against this use presented to me so far is that 1) somehow the spellcaster is not actually casting the spell during the item creation process, and therefore cannot apply the metamagic feat (which makes no sense to me), and 2) that only a spellcaster that prepares spells in advance could perhaps do this (also makes no sense to me), and 3) if you look at the rules for determining DC of a spell in an item, there is no mention of spell focus being usable at all.

1) The spellcaster does not actually cast the spells. Read the descriptions in the DMG pages 244-246 -- they say that the spell is triggered and removed from memory (or the spell slot is used up for spontaneous casters) as if the spell had been cast. Note that it doesn't say that the spell is actually cast.

2) I never said that. (but then, I'm not 100% sure if I'm the person Mistwell is referring to ^_~)

3) I think other's here have basically just confirmed what I said -- that Spell Focus has no bearing on the item's ability at all.

 

[kreynolds]

1) The spellcaster does not actually cast the spells. Read the descriptions in the DMG pages 244-246 -- they say that the spell is triggered and removed from memory (or the spell slot is used up for spontaneous casters) as if the spell had been cast. Note that it doesn't say that the spell is actually cast.

It's ok. Since it doesn't make a difference what-so-ever whether or not the spellcaster actually casts the spell during the item creation process, no clarification on your part is needed.

 

[Carthain]

Sure it does.

I'd hate to have to go to a fire-proof/resistant area to create a wand of fireballs ^_^

 

[Mistwell]

If the spell is cast, but absorbed by the item rather than having its effect around the spellcaster, then it would have the exact same effect as if the spell just left the casters memory (or the slot just went away).

The reason it was important is complicated, but I will take a stab at explaining it. Carthain made the claim that you cannot apply an alternative bard Bardic feat to spellsongs during item creation because that feat is only usable on spells that are actually cast. I argued back that metamagic feats can also only be used on spells actually cast. After some discussion, that argument seems to have been left by the wayside. The new claim is that you can apply metamagic feats to item creation, but not general feats, and since the Alt Bard Bardic feats are general feats (even though they are specifcally meant to replace metamagic feats for the Alt. Bard, and an Alt. Bard is not allowed to use other non-Bard metamagic feats according to Monte Cook), you cannot use the bardic feats during item creation.

So, it is / was important to know if the spells are actually cast during item creation, or if the slot / memorized spell simply leaves.

Personally, I think it is more important to know if the Alt. Bard Bardic feats were meant to be metamagic feats. But I doubt that is something anyone other than Monte Cook could clarify at this point.