Metamagic Rods - Wiz vs Sor

[Gizzard]

Falling Icicle says:

But, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems to me as though your impression is that Sorcerers are better than Wizards and, as such, should suffer some extra disadvantages.

I wouldn't go that far! ;-) IMC the Sorcerer has looked a little easier to play, and he's clearly better at the artillery role than the Wizard. But, as you point out, he makes up for that by having a very limited spell selection.

My contention only was that the types of spells the Sorcerer casts tend to be mostly Maximizable, while I notice our Wizard is having trouble finding three spells a day he wants to Maximize due to his tendency to have a diverse selection of spells. And that, even with the added penalty, the Sorcerer still is getting more milage out of his Maximize Rod than the Wizard.

IMC the rules seem to be working as intended. So I would be reluctant to houserule more power to the Sorcerer, who seems already to be getting the advantage from the Rod compared to the Wizard. YMMV.

Thanee says:

Wizards (specialist wizards, mind you) do not have that fewer spell slots.

Oops, my bad. (I looked at the base spells column on the character sheets, not the total spells). So the Wizard should have 6/6/6 and the Sorcerer should have 8/8/8. I think my point about how hard it is to have three guaranteed Maximizable spells still stands though despite the extra two slots. Add another Haste and a Lightning Bolt to the spell list I gave, for instance.

Thanee says:

The wizard almost always has the same or higher number of highest spell level slots available, while lacking a bit in the slightly lower ones...

IMC this doesn't matter since both players could only sensibly afford Lesser Maximize Rods and thus can only Maximize up to 3rd level spells. Since a Normal Maximize is an impressive 54000 GP I'd expect only characters in the 17-19th level range could afford them (without hocking most of their other equipment!)

-edit-
I think this is one of the keys about the game-design and the Maximize Rods; they are intended to be used only on the lower level spells and are costed as such.

Thanee says:

It's quite unlikely, that the sorcerer even knows lightning bolt...

IMC Sorc took Dispel, Fly, Fireball and Lightning Bolt as his 3rds I believe. These seem sensible choices considering the Sorcs strengths. He made sure he covered two of the three major elemental damage types. (I don't believe the Wizard has a truly dangerous Sonic or Acid attack, speaking of the minor types.)

 

[Thanee]

So I would be reluctant to houserule more power to the Sorcerer, who seems already to be getting the advantage from the Rod compared to the Wizard. YMMV.

You think better synergy with Maximize Spell is a bigger advantage than access to spontaneous application of metamagic (you obviously play it like this for wizards, right?), i.e. spontaneous Quicken Spell?

Ok, I can see, that in the special case of Maximize Spell, in your campaign, the sorcerer gets more out of it (altho the wizard definitely has the ability to use it in the same way - especially at 12th level, with stuff like Pearls of Power or Mordenkainen's Lucubration, this is no problem at all), but I'm speaking of Metamagic Rods in general, not just a single example, anyways.

Bye
Thanee

 

[pyk]

Wizards and Divine Spellcasters: Wizards and divine spellcasters must prepare their spells in advance. During preparation, the character chooses which spells to prepare with metamagic feats (and thus which ones take up higher-level spell slots than normal).

Sorcerers and Bards: Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. But because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell?s normal casting time is 1 action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn?t the same as a 1-round casting time.) For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.

Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats: A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell can cast a metamagic version of it instead. Extra time is also required in this case. Casting a 1-action metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and a spell with a longer casting time takes an extra full-round action to cast.

Metamagic Rods: Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat but do not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod?s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses.

Lesser and Greater Metamagic Rods: Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower. Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower, while greater rods can be used with spells of 9th level or lower.

Metamagic, Empower: The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are empowered as though using the Empower Spell feat.

Ok, now, if one takes the individual descriptions of each meteamagic rod [empower only used here for simplicity] it would seem as though the rod can be used during the casting of the spell, instead of the preparing of the spell.

However, if this is taken literally, this means the description of the rods as a whole must be taken literally, and means that bards, clerics casting spontaneous cure spells, and druids casting spontaneous summon nature's ally spells do not have the extra casting time added to their spontaneous casting ability.

However, this implicitly goes against the class descriptions, as well as the metamagic feat descriptions, as they both explicitly mention the extra casting time involved in casting metamagic spells.

As this part of the metamagic rods is wrong, it is logical to believe other parts may have some wrongness (sic) to them, as well?

Therefore, when examining the descriptions for both the classes, the magic overview, and the metamagic feats it is explicitly mentioned that wizards and divine spellcasters must add the metamagic feat to their spells when they are preparing them.

In other words, the individual descriptions of the rods themselves is misleading, but not blatantly wrong, as there are certain classes that are allowed to add metamagic ability to their spells as they are cast.

When the individual rules are looked at out of context, there are all sorts of loopholes that competitive players are able to manipulate to their advantage. But, when all the rules are applied in context, it is easy to see where the exceptions apply, and easy to make out the misleading and false parts.

Wizards are allowed to use metamagic feats only when preparing spells, ergo any item that confers the use of a metamagic feat can only be applied during preperation.

As such, metamagic rods are only usable by wizards during preperation of spells, not during the casting of spells. If this were possible, there would be an explicit statement detailing the exception to the wizard/metamagic rule.

 

[Falling Icicle]

As such, metamagic rods are only usable by wizards during preperation of spells, not during the casting of spells. If this were possible, there would be an explicit statement detailing the exception to the wizard/metamagic rule.

"All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity)."

Is that explicit enough? I can't think of what else "use-activated" means other than you use it when casting the spell.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Is that explicit enough? I can't think of what else "use-activated" means other than you use it when casting the spell.

How about that you use it when PREPARING the spell (which, it should be added could conceivably occur several times per day).

 

[Gizzard]

Is that explicit enough? I can't think of what else "use-activated" means other than you use it when casting the spell.

Highly agree.

The idea of not having to have the Rod when you cast leads to silliness: Player: "I prep my spells, using the Mighty Mighty Maximize Rod. And then I put it back in the Mighty Mighty Wall-Safe because I am done with it." ;-)

A Wizard who invokes a powerful wand in battle is cool. A Wizard who invokes a powerful wand in his library is a dweeb.

 

[Thanee]

A Wizard who invokes a powerful wand in battle is cool. A Wizard who invokes a powerful wand in his library is a dweeb.

Hehe. But that is how it should work, if it was to be balanced.

And think about it, Wizards aren't cool, Sorcerers are!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Lots of interesting viewpoints on this thread. But I wonder if there's a need to "balance" the metamagic rods to make them equally useful for sorcerers and wizards. After all, consider the Ring of Wizardry. Why should it grant the 20th-level sorcerer 6 extra spells, but the 20th-level wizard only 4?

Sometimes items work better for one class than another. *shrug*

 

[Falling Icicle]

How about that you use it when PREPARING the spell (which, it should be added could conceivably occur several times per day).

Then why does it go on to mention that you still provoke an attack of opportunity when casting the spell if it isn't used while casting the spell?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Then why does it go on to mention that you still provoke an attack of opportunity when casting the spell if it isn't used while casting the spell?

Well, sorcerers, bards, and spontaneously-casting druids and clerics apply metamagic feats at casting time, so that's when they'd use the rod as well.

And even though the rod is use-activated, the casting still provokes an AoO.

The other (less-likely, admittedly) possibility is that while a Quickened spell normally does not provoke an AoO, a spell Quickened by means of a Metamagic Rod does.

-Hyp.