[MHB] +6 on all attributes for 200,000 ?

[Artoomis]

...All other things being equal, would you rather have +6 to all stats or +12 to one stat?...

+6 to all stats, without question. I have never had a character concept that I wanted to play that would be better off with +12 to one stat rather than +6 to all.

Shoot, even with a plain fighter I'd rather have +6 STR and +6 CON than +12 STR.

The only time I'd even consider +12 to one stat being more valuable would be for CON becasue it's hit point effect multiplies by your level, making it more valuable per level. Even then it's not a slam dunk - the flexibility of +6 to all stats would likely be more valuable to almost any character concept than +12 to one stat, if that was actually presented as a choice.

Not to mention tha value of having it all in one item instead of 6 seperate items.

 

[Staffan]

Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don’t take up space on a character’s body use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus one-half the value of any other abilities.

By my reading that's for things like rods and staves and stuff like that, that you're holding or otherwise not putting in a "chakra" spot. It's not for using multiple abilities in a belt or an amulet.

 

[Camarath]

As always in item creation, common sense has to decide what is similar and what not. Two enhancement bonuses to an ability score may seem similar on the paper, but their effect is very different:

Also a Belt of Strength +4 and Dexterity +4 is used in the DMG as an example of an item that would have Multiple Different Abilities.

I asume that this item falls under WotC's "We can make items cost what ever we want." disclaimer. If you think the item's cost is inappropriate I don't see why you can't just change the cost or disallow the item.

Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Also a Belt of Strength +4 and Dexterity +4 is used in the DMG as an example of an item that would have Multiple Different Abilities.

As it should be. +4 Str and +4 Dex are different, not similar.

 

[Scion]

As it should be. +4 Str and +4 Dex are different, not similar.

What would be 'similar' to a ability upping item then?

 

[FrankTrollman]

One question: Will Magic give you a deal on it? Does Magic even care that your munchkinized Character won't use Charisma?

You wander away for a while and people are already coming up with stuff like this.

OK, I think everyone here needs to get a grip:

1> Magic doesn't give a crap whether an item is "slotted" or not.

2> Magic doesn't give a crap whether it is providing a "common" or "unusual" bonus type.

3> Magic doesn't even care how much it costs.

These are all game mechanical concerns. Concerns put in for the explicit purpose of maintaining gamebalance in a certain type of game where wealth is handled as an alternative score keeping method and noone thinks outside the box.

In a game where people put a little bit of thought into the ramifications of spells like Fabricate and Plane Shift - Player Wealth Guidelines are essentially out the window anyway. In those games, people are going to have to find their game balance point by some means other than Wealth/Item Cost.

---

So Item Cost, especially at the high end, is a metagame concenr that only makes sense if the DM and players all sign to the metagame agreement to allow it to matter. It requires a deliberate agreement by all parties involved to accept an irrational limitation to their character's actions in the interests of maintaining a specific agreed upon state of game balance.

So the only possible evaluation of what an item should cost is one based upon those metagame balance notions. Following the formula is nice in theory - but as you've doubtless noticed it breaks down in a lot of places (such as the unlimited use Cure Light Wounds item).

+6 to every stat is nowhere six times as good as a single +6 to one stat item. Acting like it should somehow cost more than six times as much just because some chart says it should is exactly as dumb as arguing that you should be able to have Continuous Activation Unlimited Charges True Strike or Cure Light Wounds for 3 grand.

The item costs less than the chart says it should because it is nowhere close to the power that the chart implies that it would have.

-Frank

 

[FrankTrollman]

What would be 'similar' to a ability upping item then?

+4 Strength is a similar ability to shooting fireballs.

+4 Dexterity is similar to becoming invisible.

---

It's a question of goal. The Strength allows you to attack people, you can't hit people while casting fireballs and vice versa. The abilities are similar because they accomplish a similar goal and don't particularly add to one another. The dexterity allows you to go first in battle and not get hit. An Invisible character is more likely to surprise an enemy - thereby going first, and enemies often can't attack him, which prevents him from being hit. But the AC from dexterity doesn't help him not get hit when the invisibility is keeping him from being attacked at all. The two abilities are similar.

-Frank

 

[Artoomis]

...+6 to every stat is nowhere six times as good as a single +6 to one stat item...
-Frank

On that we disagree for sure. I have limited places upon which to wear/carry/use a magic item. If I want to have lots of stat enhancements, I'd much rather have them on one item than on several - thus that one item is more valuable to ME than 6 seperate items. It may not be more valuable to the GROUP than 6 seperate items, but that's a whole different point of view, and, of course, to the (6-member) GROUP it would be more valuable to have 6 items that boosted all stats than to have 36 items that each boosted one stat. Of course, that's assuming that this is a slotted item, which it is, in this case (a belt).

If it's more valuable, then it should cost more.

How much more is an interesting discussion. I think it's worth quite a bit more. It should be more than 6 seperate items for sure. Unless it's a cloak, it cannot have affinity for one "slot" due to it's many dissimilar stat boosts.

If one of these cost 36,000, then one with six powers should cost:

More than 36,000 * 6 because we sidestep limitations on number of items worn.

More than the above cost becasue we also cannot meet the slot affinity rules.

Less than 6 seperate, slotless stat boosting items (because that would do the job equally well with added flexibility in being able to split up the item).

So it should be less than (36,000*6*2) or 432,000 and more than (36,000*6) or 216,000.

396,000 is probably about the right value per the DMG, and that's not too far off - it IS that valuable for certain characters, but not for others (who shouldn't pay for it, then!!)

 

[Kae'Yoss]

What would be 'similar' to a ability upping item then?

Stuff that corresponds to the ability. Example: Dexterity: On top of the dexterity boost, you get a bonus to ref saves, to init, and +5 ft to your speed.

You wander away for a while and people are already coming up with stuff like this.

Can't you wander away a little while longer - let's say, five years - and look what we are coming up with then? It would rid us of your trolling.

1> Magic doesn't give a crap whether an item is "slotted" or not.

Actually, it does: you need to put less magic into a speed-enhancing item if it's a pair of boots. If it's no boots, magic has to "travel further", and you need more magic to power the item. Now, if you don't wear the item at all, but only carry it, it isn't near your body and has to enter your aura first. Hence, even more magic needed

2> Magic doesn't give a crap whether it is providing a "common" or "unusual" bonus type.

Again, you're wrong: simply enhancing something by magic (read: enhancement bonus) is easy. But enhancing it indirectly, maybe by making your lucky in that regard, requires more energy - and thus, more magic.

3> Magic doesn't even care how much it costs.

Sure, the same amount of magic usually costs the same. But for stronger effects or ones that are harder to achieve, you have to use more magic. This will cost more. (Like 4WD needs more fuel than normal drive, and you need more if you pull a trailer)

So Item Cost, especially at the high end, is a metagame concenr that only makes sense if the DM and players all sign to the metagame agreement to allow it to matter. It requires a deliberate agreement by all parties involved to accept an irrational limitation to their character's actions in the interests of maintaining a specific agreed upon state of game balance.

Actually, it requires only the DM. And game balance is a good thing, especially if you have powergamers, min/maxers, munchkins, and Trolls in the party who think that "since I'm a fighter, I should get that +6 charisma thingy for free, since I have no use for charisma.

+6 to every stat is nowhere six times as good as a single +6 to one stat item.

You are right. It is even better, since you get to up all stats but only have to use up one slot.

Acting like it should somehow cost more than six times as much just because some chart says it should

It's not because "some chart says it should", but because common sense says it should. Of course, a Troll lacks common sense. It's a defining trait.

is exactly as dumb as arguing that you should be able to have Continuous Activation Unlimited Charges True Strike or Cure Light Wounds for 3 grand.

Insulting and comparing pears with apples - all in one. This is another Troll racial trait. The examples the Troll uses are the most outrageous munchkin konzepts, of course. It's as saying: "Forbidding every man to own a gun is stupid because the other countries nuke us if we don't have a nuke!

The item costs less than the chart says it should because it is nowhere close to the power that the chart implies that it would have.

Fact is that everyone benefits from every ability score. Some characters or concepts need some ability scores less than others (a powergamer who plays a ftr4/brb X doesn't use Cha of course), but none is totally useless (the DM of the mentioned powergamer might say: "you might be a good liar, but your character is a very bad one, due to lack in bluff ranks and low cha, so the archwizard doesn't believe you and grills you").

So how many ability scores does a character need?
Some (very few) concepts have only one primary ability score. Others have two or three, four is also quite common. Some have 5 and a handful of concepts even need all 6 as primary (primary meaning "need to have a really decent score in that". everyone - except those who have 6 primes, of course - have one or more secondary scores, which don't need a extremely high score, but may not be dump score, either).
So you say you don't need all 6? How much do you need? How much of a discount do you give for the other ones?

Let's say, you need 2 really much, and pay full for them. Another two are decent, so your pay 0.75. The rest is basically dump stats and we only pay 0.25. So we have 6x +6 but only pay 4x +6.
But "Halt!" the wizard says, "I only need Intelligence, maybe a little wis for will saves, I only pay 2.75x +6!"
While the monk thinks "Sweet! I Need Str, Dex, Con and Wis, with INT and Cha playing a secondary roll, I'd pay 5.5x +6 for that item. This is a bargain."

So what is the price? Does everyone pay according to his primary stats? What if the Wizard buys it and gives it to the monk? Will all but the simplest concepts (with 1 prime stat) get a bargain? Or will all but the Monk/Wizard/Paladin more than they should, cause they "don't need" some stats?

And for your "pricing as balance is for stupid people" whining: In a game that relies as much on Items as D&D, you have to have balanced prices. The fact that you simply can't create "subjective prices" with a normal monetary system means that some will get more bang for their buck than others.

But there's that other thing: If you dont'd need +6 to all stats, why would you buy it? You're a simple fighter? Get an item that boosts Str and Con only, it will cost even less. If you don't need the other scores, why pay at all?

 

[kreynolds]

Well, in our case, it doesn't actually give you something obscure you never use. It just raises all the ability scores, which are all useful (unless you play an extreme like 100% dungeon crawl without CHA score), so this one shouldn't get a discount.

Of course it should (from my perspective, anyway). You can split up the ability bonuses. For example, say you decide to wear full plate from now on, and you no longer want the +6 to Dex. If you're dealing with Ioun stones, you can just sell it, stow it, or give it to a friend. With the belt, you can't do that. I.E., it's less versatile.