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Middle Earth questions
- Thread starter Conservative Cow
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Desdichado
Hero
That's an urban myth. I hear it all over the net but it's absolutely untrue. There are no such hints in their conversation that aren't easier to ascribe to some other meaning other than extreme longevity in orcs.
In addition, your use of the term archangel for the valar and maiar is a bit misleading perhaps, although it is also common. The Valar were originally created by Tolkien as a kind of pagan mythological pantheon. As Tolkien later tried to integrate his whole mythology into something that would be compatible with the real world as he understood it (as a Catholic) by necessity he had to make them "under-gods" of some kind underneath Iluvatar, who is God. Since archangels are the only such beings in traditional Judeo-Christian traditions in that role, the Valar and maiar are often equated with with archangels. In reality, however, they are a new class of creature: a pagan-type god who isn't worshipped and who serves the One god.
The thought did occur to me. Both of them are Sylvan elves with an aristocracy made up mostly of Sindarin elves. In other words, they are essentially the same types of people, except that the elves of Lothlorien, under the leadership of Galadriel, had improved their position somewhat relative to their northern kinsmen.
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Gorbag and Shagrat
You may hear it all over, but I don't. I came to the opinion independently, by studying the conversation closely and comparing it to the timelines. There are other possibilities, but it seems to me that the plainest reading is that Shagrat and Gorbag remember a time when there were no big bosses. Check the date for the re-founding of Barad-dur. They also refer to the 'good old days' before the Siege of Agband (over seven thousand years ago) or possibly before the War of the Last Alliance (three thousand years ago). But I don't hear soldiers to day referring to the 'good old days' of the Middle Kingdom in Egypt, or the 'good old days' before the invention of horticulture.
Besides, answer me this: how could Morgoth or Sauron have given orcs Iluvatar's Gift of Men?
Very likely it was, but I was trying to give a simple translation that someone who has not read The Silmarillion would find immediately accessible. The original poster can go read the Valaquenta if he or she wants to get into the nitty-gritty.
Joshua Dyal said:
You may hear it all over, but I don't. I came to the opinion independently, by studying the conversation closely and comparing it to the timelines. There are other possibilities, but it seems to me that the plainest reading is that Shagrat and Gorbag remember a time when there were no big bosses. Check the date for the re-founding of Barad-dur. They also refer to the 'good old days' before the Siege of Agband (over seven thousand years ago) or possibly before the War of the Last Alliance (three thousand years ago). But I don't hear soldiers to day referring to the 'good old days' of the Middle Kingdom in Egypt, or the 'good old days' before the invention of horticulture.
Besides, answer me this: how could Morgoth or Sauron have given orcs Iluvatar's Gift of Men?
Very likely it was, but I was trying to give a simple translation that someone who has not read The Silmarillion would find immediately accessible. The original poster can go read the Valaquenta if he or she wants to get into the nitty-gritty.
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Desdichado
Hero
There is nothing in the conversation that indicates Shagrat and Gorbag literally remember a time before Big Bosses, although certainly they know of such times. There's no need to cast them back to the time before the rise of Sauron.
And even if you do, that was only 60 some odd years ago. The orcs during The Hobbit didn't have Big Bosses in the sense of working for Sauron, as Sauron wasn't arisen and declared at that time. There were plenty of "free" orcs roaming the world, and likely the land of Mordor, at that time, since Sauron was undeclared and disguised as "The Necromancer" of Mirkwood.
In addition, people do refer to the good old days. There are a lot of folks in Cornwall, for example, that refer to the good old days before the Anglo-saxon tribes come to Britain. The Nazis regularly referred to the good old days of the combined Indo-European folks, who lived during the Eneolithic of southern Russia. The Japanese consciously prolonged the good old days of the samurai for hundreds of years by not adopting guns. The Victorians talked about the good old days of the Germanic tribes who brought about the fall of the decadent Roman Empire. People talk about semi-legendary good old days all the time. By playing D&D, in a way, we're doing the exact same thing.
And even if you do, that was only 60 some odd years ago. The orcs during The Hobbit didn't have Big Bosses in the sense of working for Sauron, as Sauron wasn't arisen and declared at that time. There were plenty of "free" orcs roaming the world, and likely the land of Mordor, at that time, since Sauron was undeclared and disguised as "The Necromancer" of Mirkwood.
In addition, people do refer to the good old days. There are a lot of folks in Cornwall, for example, that refer to the good old days before the Anglo-saxon tribes come to Britain. The Nazis regularly referred to the good old days of the combined Indo-European folks, who lived during the Eneolithic of southern Russia. The Japanese consciously prolonged the good old days of the samurai for hundreds of years by not adopting guns. The Victorians talked about the good old days of the Germanic tribes who brought about the fall of the decadent Roman Empire. People talk about semi-legendary good old days all the time. By playing D&D, in a way, we're doing the exact same thing.
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ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
The southern land was called Harad. The people were Haradrim.
Joshua Dyal said:
Yes, but the Nazgul were running Mordor as his deputies. There had been big bosses in Mordor since T.A. 1980, which is to say for 1,038 years.
I know they do. Usually referring to the 1950s, when we still had short hair, conscription, full employment, and capital punishment.
But if anyone ever refers to 'the good old days' earlier than his or her parents' time he or she is doing so for humorous or rhetorical effect. Not as an unaffected way to refer to a time before the Norman Conquest of England.
The conversation by no means proves that Shagrat and Gorbag are very, very old. But I think you are coming on too strong when you write, as in the thread above, that it is "absolutely untrue" that the conversation contains hints that they might be.
Regards,
Agback
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ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
The Haradrim were generally aligned with Sauron, and were a constant thorn in Gondor's southern side. Umbar was one of the kingdoms of the Haradrim.
I imagine they had an aversion to the elves. They served in Sauron's army alongside orcs, and presumably had little knowledge or love of the Valar and Maiar.
I imagine they had an aversion to the elves. They served in Sauron's army alongside orcs, and presumably had little knowledge or love of the Valar and Maiar.
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