Midnight-Is it worth it?

d20Dwarf said:
It's funny, you know something's balanced when 1/2 the people complain that it's weak and the other 1/2 say it's broken. :) Of course, those that have actually played channelers don't seem to have a problem. ;)

[...]

A friend of mine who's a judge says that she always knows she has found the right balance for a settlement suggestion when both parties to the case writhe and grumble. :)


The channeler in my game doesn't seem to have a problem. Then again, he's only 2nd level yet.
 

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d20Dwarf said:
It's funny, you know something's balanced when 1/2 the people complain that it's weak and the other 1/2 say it's broken. :) Of course, those that have actually played channelers don't seem to have a problem. ;)

A bit of the trouble seems to be in the paradigm...if you think spellcasters are supposed to be fireball-hurling, wish-granting monsters then yes, the channeler is going to disappoint you. If you can recognize that every magic spell has a greater impact in Midnight than it does in a normal campaign, and the fact that channelers are better in every other way, then you'll definitely have a fun time playing a channeler.

Tons of skill points, medium BAB, the channeler gift, a familiar....personally I think they stack up quite well against all the other classes. Don't forget the fact that their spells are spontaneous and there is no limit to the amount they can know! Now take a wizard or druid prestige class and watch them start to really lob the spells around, while still having tons of skills and fighting ability to fall back on.

If it means much, Wil, I don't stack them up necessarily against the Wizard, which some might, but instead the Bard, which they more closely resemble. Even then, they don't quite hold up against one. The Bard has equal skill-points, equal hitdie, more spells per day after a few levels, armored spellcasting, better weapon proficiencies, and a few other abilities which mimic and sometimes are better than those of the Channeler. The Channeler has a greater range of spells they can know, sure, they can cast low-level rituals willy-nilly, time allowing, and they can access higher level spells, but I'm not quite so sure that makes up for it. I also don't think a high level channeler is a much better spellcaster than, say, a 5th level channeler who multi-classes into another class.

I don't necessarily think that making the Channeler into a spell-lobbing, fireball-hurling, wish-granting monster is the way to go, as I can acknowledge, that's not really Midnight, but I do think they could do with a few other bonuses - perhaps reduced Arcane Spell Failure as they go up in levels, or a non-spellcasting bonus feat here or there.

I do realize some prestige classes really make up for any possible deficiencies in the Channeler class, but I also go by the philosophy that a base class should be just as viable/powerful as a prestige class, as there will never be enough prestige classes to fit every character one might play.

As I said, I don't think the Channeler needs to be a better spellcaster, but I think a few other higher level abilities other than metamagic and spell school feats would balance it out.

Other than that, though...I don't think I have a single other complaint about the setting itself. It's easily the best d20 book I've picked up.
 

Bendris Noulg said:
(snip) My "vision" for Midnight is actually a multi-generational affair, with the Players making character's for a series of quests/adventures that are interlinked in some regards, possibly taking a thousand years (and thus 10 or more PCs per Player over the entire campaign) to finally "line things up" in such a way as to destroy the Dark One. Essentially, a long string of minor victories with "unsung heroes" that culminate in the final quest for the last generation of PCs that determines if Evil will rule forever.

Doubt I'll ever get to do it, but it's still a neat idea.

I like this idea too, BN. I've posted a few things about a similar idea over at www.pathsoflegend.org where Generation One is set in Midnight and basically causes an apocalypse out of which the world of Dawnforge is born. A better set up would be to head toward the Apocalypse through two or more generations of PCs but then it becomes difficult to keep it seeming fresh.

Generation Two is set in Dawnforge where there is a mysterious cabal of Immortals that sometimes influence events. The cabal, of course, is made up of the Generation One PCs, albeit they are now Immortal NPCs. I need to think this through a bit more as I'm torn between allowing one of the players to play a disciple of his previous PC and having them simply as mysterious beings in the background.

Anyway, Generation Two goes on to perform legendary deeds like redeeming part of the night elf race, uniting the domains of the Kingsmarch into a single kingdom, becoming an Immortal etc.... They will truly shape the world.

The Generation Three PSs will play in a campaign set some 500 years in the future where the achievements and failures of the Generation Two PCs have truly shaped the world. However, the primary goal of the Generation Three PCs will be the greatest of all: Izrador's final overthrow. Oh yes, I didn't mention that he survived the Apocalypse, did I? Part of this idea came from mention in the Dawnforge book of an evil entity named Arhizar Abhat (I may have got the spelling wrong) who is not otherwise described.
 


blackshirt5 said:
OK, I'm pondering picking up the Midnight setting from FFG.

Is it worth it? I really like a lot of FFGs stuff but I'd still like to hear a bit more about it. How does the magic system work? What classes are available in it? How do the Heroic Paths work?

Yep. Worth it. Best setting I have ever run as a DM.
 

Trickstergod said:
If it means much, Wil, I don't stack them up necessarily against the Wizard, which some might, but instead the Bard, which they more closely resemble. Even then, they don't quite hold up against one. The Bard has equal skill-points, equal hitdie, more spells per day after a few levels, armored spellcasting, better weapon proficiencies, and a few other abilities which mimic and sometimes are better than those of the Channeler. The Channeler has a greater range of spells they can know, sure, they can cast low-level rituals willy-nilly, time allowing, and they can access higher level spells, but I'm not quite so sure that makes up for it. I also don't think a high level channeler is a much better spellcaster than, say, a 5th level channeler who multi-classes into another class.

I don't necessarily think that making the Channeler into a spell-lobbing, fireball-hurling, wish-granting monster is the way to go, as I can acknowledge, that's not really Midnight, but I do think they could do with a few other bonuses - perhaps reduced Arcane Spell Failure as they go up in levels, or a non-spellcasting bonus feat here or there.

I do realize some prestige classes really make up for any possible deficiencies in the Channeler class, but I also go by the philosophy that a base class should be just as viable/powerful as a prestige class, as there will never be enough prestige classes to fit every character one might play.

As I said, I don't think the Channeler needs to be a better spellcaster, but I think a few other higher level abilities other than metamagic and spell school feats would balance it out.

Other than that, though...I don't think I have a single other complaint about the setting itself. It's easily the best d20 book I've picked up.
This is one of the things I'm getting at. Fighters with their feat trees become incredibly powerful at later levels...even without lots of magic weapons. But Channelers don't get very much. I mean, a 20th lvl channeler has no more spellcasting ability than a 20th lvl ranger or paladin in core D&D. Sure, he might be able to cast some higher level spells....but after those two high level spells, that's it....for the day. And everything else about him just seems inferior. He doesn't have the skills of the rogue or the combat expertise of the fighter, etc.

I *do* think the Channeler is much more flavourful than the core wizard. I mean, he needs to gain his spells from special areas, go to special areas to enchant items, etc. And magic is limited....he can't cast even the most basic invocation spells until at least lvl 7, which means he's dependent upon much more subtle magics. Which is cool.

I just don't think he has quite enough..

Banshee
 

Just offering my opinion: No, it's not worth it.

The book is a bit faulty. Only the first couple pages are colored - it's black and white otherwise. Not very good solution, considering that you've seen already how nice the colored pages look.

While the premise is pretty nice, I think that the book fails to live up to the expectations. It may have to do with my personal feelings though - I guess low-magic gloomy settings aren't for me. But I just thought to give you my feelings on the subject :(
 

Numion said:
Just offering my opinion: No, it's not worth it.

The book is a bit faulty. Only the first couple pages are colored - it's black and white otherwise. Not very good solution, considering that you've seen already how nice the colored pages look.

While the premise is pretty nice, I think that the book fails to live up to the expectations. It may have to do with my personal feelings though - I guess low-magic gloomy settings aren't for me. But I just thought to give you my feelings on the subject :(

I think Midnight lives up to all its expectations...those being of a low-magic, gloomy setting.

Furthermore, in regards to the color and black and white...

The artwork is simply gorgeous, and I find the black and white works better than the color. Considering the settings title and premise - Midnight, where the fallen god Izrador has cast his dark shadow over the land - the black and white is highly appropriate. Color artwork wouldn't fit very well for most of the book. Far too garish for what the book is.

But...to each their own.
 

I like Midnight for all kinds of reasons. It's not for everyone, certainly. Regarding the artwork, I'm hard pressed to think of a d20 product that has better artwork, consistantly throughout the book...
 

Quoting Numion

The book is a bit faulty. Only the first couple pages are colored - it's black and white otherwise. Not very good solution, considering that you've seen already how nice the colored pages look.

I would rather have good B&W art (eg, Midnight) than bad colour art (eg, many of the FR books). I would also rather have a lower price than all colour.

While the premise is pretty nice, I think that the book fails to live up to the expectations. It may have to do with my personal feelings though - I guess low-magic gloomy settings aren't for me. But I just thought to give you my feelings on the subject :(

The challenge, of course, is to inject hope into the setting so that the gloom becomes a backdrop, albeit a backdrop that needs to be conquered.

Anyway, I realise that it's just a difference of opinions but I do think that this is such a good setting that's it's worth reconsidering. ;)
 

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