Might vs Magic

[Aldarc]

If you don't need roles or if they don't exist, then what is the purpose of class other than for descriptive variation? If there are no roles, then there's no need for variation.

Playstyles. You shouldn't be stuck in the World of Warcraft mindset of classes having set roles.

 

[Bluenose]

If you don't need roles or if they don't exist, then what is the purpose of class other than for descriptive variation? If there are no roles, then there's no need for variation.

Your assertion is a logic tautology. It's like saying that you don't need different players on a team to play different positions if different positions don't exist. In essence, it is supporting the very point I'm making.

You don't need classes for that sort of distinction between characters, though. Just because any character can learn any skills, it doesn't mean they will. Or that they'll even think of trying to. Assuming there are limits on how much people can learn in a given time period then people will tend to specialise their characters in certain ways, even if there are suprirising "outlier" skills that you wouldn't normally expect.

 

[Andor]

If you don't need roles or if they don't exist, then what is the purpose of class other than for descriptive variation? If there are no roles, then there's no need for variation.

Your assertion is a logic tautology. It's like saying that you don't need different players on a team to play different positions if different positions don't exist. In essence, it is supporting the very point I'm making.

Classes are a gameist construction. They, in a sense, don't exist in the game world, and neither do roles.

Put another way: The GM presents the players with a set of problems and the class is one part of the PCs toolkit for dealing with that problem.

To insist on roles is to insist that the only way to deal with a problem is with a toolkit with a hammer, a screwdriver, a wrench and flashlight. And that then constrains the GM to make scenarios that call for those four tools and nothing else.

You might like that, I'd find it dull. I want my toolkit to include ducttape and C4.

It's up to the players and the PCs to deal with the problems however they want to. It might be to boot in the door and start lopping off heads. It might be to convince the goblins that the Orcs are going to betray them and start an internal conflict. It might be to insipre the local humans to fortify the end of the valley and to lead them in mass warfare. It might be to poison the well in the humanoids camp. Or maybe you cut a deal with the Orcs, open the town gate and make off with the McGuffin while they sack the town.

Now quick, how do the four roles play into those choices?

You're trying to insist that roles are how the game is played. I think they are a tiny subset of the way the game is played.

And thus, by a somewhat roundabout route, I get to the quote that started this thread. Yes, I expect fighters to be as effective as spellcasters in all situations, at all levels, although not necessarily exactly as effective, and not necessarily in exactly the same ways. A fighter should be able to fight, but he should be able to do more than just fight.

Here I think I need to disagree with you. Because this is a fantasy game, and that means it includes the magical and the fantastic. And if having magical and fantastic powers does not actually give you any abilities that a magicless character has not then I'm not seeing the wonder.

If the wizard needs to get to the flying castle he casts fly. The Fighter goes out, steals a griffin egg, rears the kit, trains it to the saddle and uses his flying mount to get to the castle. Not as fast as the spell, but maybe cooler.

The the Wizard wants to know what the evil Baron is doing he casts scry. The Fighter hires a spy. Slower, but possibly more effective.

If the Princess gets abducted by a demon that drags her to hell the Wizard casts Gate and follows. The Fighter.... hires a Wizard.

For most things time, effort and chutzpah will substitute for magic, a torch is just as effective as a light spell and burns things as a bonus. But sometimes you need magic.

Traveling to other planes. Bringing back the dead. Enchantment. Travelling a thousand miles in an afternoon. Sometimes you gotta have a spell caster.

 

[JohnSnow]

Here I think I need to disagree with you. Because this is a fantasy game, and that means it includes the magical and the fantastic. And if having magical and fantastic powers does not actually give you any abilities that a magicless character has not then I'm not seeing the wonder.

If the wizard needs to get to the flying castle he casts fly. The Fighter goes out, steals a griffin egg, rears the kit, trains it to the saddle and uses his flying mount to get to the castle. Not as fast as the spell, but maybe cooler.

The the Wizard wants to know what the evil Baron is doing he casts scry. The Fighter hires a spy. Slower, but possibly more effective.

If the Princess gets abducted by a demon that drags her to hell the Wizard casts Gate and follows. The Fighter.... hires a Wizard.

For most things time, effort and chutzpah will substitute for magic, a torch is just as effective as a light spell and burns things as a bonus. But sometimes you need magic.

Traveling to other planes. Bringing back the dead. Enchantment. Travelling a thousand miles in an afternoon. Sometimes you gotta have a spell caster.

I actually have no problem with the wizard being able to cast fly but the fighter having to rear a griffon mount (or own a flying carpet or some other device). Likewise, hiring a spy vs. casting scry probably gives the fighter more and better information. Sure, it's slow, but that's okay.

Bringing back the dead and traveling to other planes are areas where magic is necessary. Or are they? In classical myths, the hero enters the other plane to rescue the princess by finding the right doorway - which is usually located in some remote, out of the way place that requires a great quest to reach. Similarly, if the fighter has to bring someone back from the dead, he locates a doorway to the underworld, fights his way in, defeats whatever's holding the person there, and brings them home.

Personally, I think that's a lot cooler than "I cast gate," or "I cast raise dead." YMMV.

Magic can sometimes get you where you're going faster, but a non-spellcaster usuallly CAN get there.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Here I think I need to disagree with you. Because this is a fantasy game, and that means it includes the magical and the fantastic. And if having magical and fantastic powers does not actually give you any abilities that a magicless character has not then I'm not seeing the wonder.

Causing a stone to hatch and release a full grown sparrow is impossible, magical and wonderous. It's implications of the /sort/ of thing you could do (create life from innert matter or weave a complex illusion or aport small objects and animals) might point towards some powerful effects, but there could be plenty of mystical reasons why they're not options.

Power is not the only source of wonder.

The the Wizard wants to know what the evil Baron is doing he casts scry. The Fighter hires a spy. Slower, but possibly more effective.

Well, or if he's a better-done fighter, with some place in the campaign and some abilities in each of the 'pillars,' he might claim hospitality - as a fellow noble - at the Barrons castle and spy on it, himself.

If the Princess gets abducted by a demon that drags her to hell the Wizard casts Gate and follows. The Fighter.... hires a Wizard.

Or quests for a gate to the abyss and fights his way through it's fearsome guardians.

Traveling to other planes.

Naturally-occuring gates/shallowings, roping & breaking a Nigh Mare.

Bringing back the dead.

fight your way into the underworld and 'rescue' them (hey, Oprheus sang his way in).

Enchantment.

Perternatural crafting skill. (or do you mean like charm person? preternatural persuasiveness)

Travelling a thousand miles in an afternoon.

Capture an exotic mount of sufficient speed, or jump onto some mythic creature (or object) that's hurtling your way and hold on, tie your spear to your wrist with a stout cord and throw it 1000 miles...

Heroes of legend often did truely rediculous things without magic. If you don't hold non-casters to a higher standard of realism than caster, there's not much limit to what they can do - just some creativity and narrative-control (or added plot hooks) in how they do it.