Mike Mearls on D&D Psionics: Should Psionic Flavor Be Altered?

WotC's Mike Mearls has been asking for opinions on how psionics should be treated in D&D 5th Edition. I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that he'd hinted that he might be working on something, and this pretty much seals the deal. He asked yesterday "Agree/Disagree: The flavor around psionics needs to be altered to allow it to blend more smoothly into a traditional fantasy setting", and then followed up with some more comments today.

"Thanks for all the replies! Theoretically, were I working on psionics, I'd try to set some high bars for the execution. Such as - no psionic power duplicates a spell, and vice versa. Psionics uses a distinct mechanic, so no spell slots. One thing that might be controversial - I really don't like the scientific terminology, like psychokinesis, etc. But I think a psionicist should be exotic and weird, and drawing on/tied to something unsettling on a cosmic scale.... [but]... I think the source of psi would be pretty far from the realm of making pacts. IMO, old one = vestige from 3e's Tome of Magic.

One final note - Dark Sun is, IMO, a pretty good example of what happens to a D&D setting when psionic energy reaches its peak. Not that the rules would require it, but I think it's an interesting idea to illustrate psi's relationship to magic on a cosmic level."

 

[steeldragons]

I always saw it is Ouput-Processing-Intake. Power-Speed-Toughness

Str-Dex-Con
Cha-Int-Wis

You taking information in and link yourself to others with Wisdom. You process and analyze information with a speed based on Intelligence. And you project your information with Charisma.

It would be interesting to have Psionics as a 3 stat "magic" which works.

For example, you can use psionic telepathy to frighten a foe.

If you use a Wisdom based DC, it's an AOE as you can enter more minds by spotting the holes in their psyches.
If you use a Intelligence based DC, it stuns as well as you can quickly search the target's mind for their greater fears.
If you use a Charisma based DC, it causes psychic damage as your pack a punch as you break into their mind.

So, by this method, are the PCs taking 3 rounds to get off their attack? Or are they getting to roll 3 dice on their turn before the next guy can go?

These are, granted "meta"-, considerations that need to be taken into account for the class design. Does any other class get to act in such a way?

I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I'm just "Casting my mind forward", if you'll forgive the pun, and wondering how it would actually play, at a table, with other people.

 

[Tony Vargas]

There's Str/Dex/Con...they cover, mostly, the body. There's Int/Wis/Cha...they cover the, mostly, the elements of a person that are not physical. That's all they are. There is no correlation, whatsoever, that I have ever seen defined or expected from the game.

Nod. There can be. It came up in an old 1e campaign I was running, when I decided to do a scenario in which PCs were trapped in a 'dream realm.' The realm felt physically real, but only the PC's minds were present. Thus, it was their mental stats that determined their seeming 'physical' abilities in that realm (CHA->STR, INT->DEX, WIS->CON). Used the same rule of thumb for interacting with 'spirits' in later adventures. It was a lot of Cartesian dualist and theosophic silliness, really, but in a fantasy game, I think that's OK.

 

[steeldragons]

D&D 5e Players Handbook (p12):

Wisdom: ‘Awareness, intuition’, ... plus willpower.
So I think, Wisdom = Psion ...to me

Charisma: ‘Eloquence, leadership’ ... plus innate magic.
So I think, Charisma = Telepathy, including Psionic Charm, Psionic Dominate, Psionic Suggestion, etcetera. ...for me

Intelligence: ‘Information recall, analytical skill’ ... plus bookish education.
So I think, Intelligence ≠ Psion ...to me

Constitution: ‘Health, stamina’ ... plus physical toughness.
So I think, Constitution ≠ Psion ...for me

[bold text added by me]

Cleaned up that post for ya. You're welcome.

 

[Minigiant]

So, by this method, are the PCs taking 3 rounds to get off their attack? Or are they getting to roll 3 dice on their turn before the next guy can go?

These are, granted "meta"-, considerations that need to be taken into account for the class design. Does any other class get to act in such a way?

I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I'm just "Casting my mind forward", if you'll forgive the pun, and wondering how it would actually play, at a table, with other people.

No. The psionic character picks how they use the power and each method uses a different DC.

PSIONIC HORROR
You project a horrifying image in a creature's mind. The target must make a Charisma saving throw or drop whatever they are holding and be frightened for the duration....

Empathic Mind: The power is a 40 ft cone and affects all creatures in the cone of your choosing. The DC is Wisdom Based.
Swift Mind: The target is stunned for the first round of the duration. The DC is Intelligence Based.
Powerful Mind: The target takes 3d6 psychic damage on a failed save and half damage on a success. The DC is Charisma Based.

 

[steeldragons]

Nod. There can be. It came up in an old 1e campaign I was running, when I decided to do a scenario in which PCs were trapped in a 'dream realm.' The realm felt physically real, but only the PC's minds were present. Thus, it was their mental stats that determined their seeming 'physical' abilities in that realm (CHA->STR, INT->DEX, WIS->CON). Used the same rule of thumb for interacting with 'spirits' in later adventures. It was a lot of Cartesian dualist and theosophic silliness, really, but in a fantasy game, I think that's OK.

Right. And that's great that you did that, at your table, in that scenario/game. Sounds cool and fun.

That does not mean that all of the "this means something because I'm putting colons in between them" talk going on here is some kind of formal defined or even "as intended" rules/definitions that must be recognized or adhered.

It's fun theorizing. Interesting to comparing perspectives. But surprise, surprise...I like mine better. It "works", is consistent with my ideas/visions of what these characters are like, how they are best represented in the game world.

..and that's as valid as anything needs be in a D&D game/world.

 

[Yaarel]

[MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION]

LOL! Like I said, the six abilities in D&D are largely incoherent and meaningless.

I hope these past two pages disabused you of any sentiments to the contrary.

 

[Mercule]

PSIONIC HORROR
You project a horrifying image in a creature's mind. The target must make a Charisma saving throw or drop whatever they are holding and be frightened for the duration....

Empathic Mind: The power is a 40 ft cone and affects all creatures in the cone of your choosing. The DC is Wisdom Based.
Swift Mind: The target is stunned for the first round of the duration. The DC is Intelligence Based.
Powerful Mind: The target takes 3d6 psychic damage on a failed save and half damage on a success. The DC is Charisma Based.

Do not like. No cohesion to the power.

 

[Remathilis]

I disagree with a lot of what you said, above, but I'm also OK with the idea of a psionic sub-class (or several). That could be in addition to a full class psion, of course.

My dream set up...

Psion: full class, with 5 subclasses (kineticist, telepath, egoist, seer, nomad).
Psychic warrior: fighter subtype like EK for psionics.
Lurk: rogue subtype like AT for psionics.
Soul knife: monk subclass that gives mind blade to monk.
Wild Talent: feat that grants minor psionics to anyone, like magical adept.

 

[Yaarel]

Wait. Do we all agree that Psion deserves to be a full class? Is this true?

At the same time, I want psionic subclasses of normal classes, like Wizard, Cleric, and Bard, with normal mechanics, normal multiclassing, etcetera.



Personally, I want a Psychic Warrior that is fully magical - a full caster.

I want the Psion to fight magically at a distance for one archetype. But I also want the same Psion class to play like a Swordmage (or a Jedi), fighting completely magicially but in melee, for the Psywar archetype of the Psion class.

I tend to associate the Psywar with shapeshifting (transmutation, psychometabolism), so high Constitution for the Psywar archetype works ok.

 

[steeldragons]

No. The psionic character picks how they use the power and each method uses a different DC.

PSIONIC HORROR
You project a horrifying image in a creature's mind. The target must make a Charisma saving throw or drop whatever they are holding and be frightened for the duration....

Empathic Mind: The power is a 40 ft cone and affects all creatures in the cone of your choosing. The DC is Wisdom Based.
Swift Mind: The target is stunned for the first round of the duration. The DC is Intelligence Based.
Powerful Mind: The target takes 3d6 psychic damage on a failed save and half damage on a success. The DC is Charisma Based.

I see. In a way, it would make psionics like a skill system. Interesting. Whatever is applicable to that power is what you use. I could see that. Seems a bit more complicated than I would care for. Makes playing a psionic a little less "new player" friendly...but it could certainly work.

So...what ability would you say would be the class' primary then? Maybe something...something that, say, could be used to keep one's different power categories organized in one's mind....something that would help one recall which "part of your mind" one needed to focus to use a given power...Something, maybe, that might help is gurus or advanced mentalists had written pointers or training techniques about...that one might...say....study to understand which part of their psyche will enact a given power. Some kind of ability like that lets you be good at all of those "brainy" kinds of things sounds like it just might work.