D&D 4E Mike Mearls on how 4E could have looked

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
The resource game in 4e doesn't - or, alternatively, it has no "resource game". As I've frequently posted over the last decade or so, this is one of the features of 4e that makes it suited to scene-framing play: it does not have the duration tracking, healing tracking, etc features of AD&D, 3E, Rolemaster, and other typical 70s-80s-style RPGs.
And seeing as how the resource game was up until then a pretty significant and important part of the overall game, it's small wonder 4e with its removal of this aspect of play got the less-than-enthusiastic reception it did...

It's not a feature, it's a bug. A catastrophic, non-recoverable, system-crashing godzilla-size bug.

Lan-"killing a few bugs that big oughta be worth lots of xp...hope they've got some treasure to 'em or I won't be able to afford to train"-efan
 

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Parmandur

Book-Friend
And seeing as how the resource game was up until then a pretty significant and important part of the overall game, it's small wonder 4e with its removal of this aspect of play got the less-than-enthusiastic reception it did...

It's not a feature, it's a bug. A catastrophic, non-recoverable, system-crashing godzilla-size bug.

Lan-"killing a few bugs that big oughta be worth lots of xp...hope they've got some treasure to 'em or I won't be able to afford to train"-efan

I think either direction can be a feature or bug, depending on playstyle. Which WotC found out the hard way
 


Imaro

Legend
Is this based on your actual play experience?

Yes said as much in another post.

(1) Not all casters in 4e have ritual casting.

But anyone who has ritual casting is a caster...

(2) I have played a fair bit of 4e. I have posted a lot of actual play reports. One repeated element in replies to those posts is that rituals are a much bigger part of my game than their experience of 4e. And I can report that it is simply not tue that ritual casting means that the invoker/wizard in my 4e game is more effective at non-combat scenarios than other PCs.

Eh, then he probably doesn't leverage rituals well. There were plenty of 3.x tables with fighters and wizards who never saw the linear/quadratic issue... does that mean it didn't exist?

So, to be clear: you think that 4e doesn't play any differently from 5e - except that it does?

Where in what you quoted am I saying that. The fact that 4e has skill challenges which have DC's set without concern for fiction but in a purely gamist manner means they can't play the exact same. It seems instead of you taking what I actually posted and responding to it you're trying to define a much broader argument and assign it to me and then argue against that... no deal.

You think that there is no difference between the way DCs are set in 4e (DC-by-level) and 5e (GM chooses a DC from a list; bounded accuracy) - except that there is?

The procedure is the same the only difference is that one list is from a more granular, level based list of DC's and the other is a much broader list encompassing all levels.

I've posted what I think the difference is, and how it manifests in play. You and @Parmandur and others disagree - but you also think that 4e plays differently from 5e. Is it the case that's those who prefer 5e to 4e are allowed to articulate what's different, but those with the opposite preference are not? I frankly don't know what you guys are trying to show, because every time someone who prefers 4e to 5e articulates the differences that underpin that preference, you tell them they're wrong! What's your theory of the difference? If there's no difference, why do you prefer 5e?

I just gave two differences above... they just aren't your differences. You see I can disagree with the differences you think exist between the games and still think the games have differences.
 

[MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION]

Trying to round out the rest of your questions:

1) The hoverpod was Fly 120 (Hover), 18 AC, 90 HP, +15 to hit @ 120 range w/ Multi-attack * 3 @ 18 damage per, Shield @ Recharge 6.

2) The ship wasn't massive like a Star Destroyer. Basically just typical dungeon size or castle size with multiple branching paths, wandering monsters, self-defense systems ("traps" in nomenclature), and the two "set piece" rooms. The PCs would constantly be inside of 1000 feet of The Time Reaper. They were moving at Fast Pace for a dungeon (or 40 sq/minute) because the Wizard/Rogue already had Disadvantage for Perception (but the Rogue had Expertise and + 2 so auto-success on 15...again, he detected and resolved the sole self-defense system RE they faced) and Stealth wasn't a thing so who cares. As I said in my post, the 10 minutes of utility of Discern Location probably saved them about 4 RE/WM checks, which @ 25 % chance per exploration move equals roughly one encounter saved.

3) Regarding parley and Geas on the commander/engineer, this is an area of disagreement that you and I have. (a) I don't feel like NPCs that are predispositioned toward giving the PCs no chance at functional parley are helpful to play. I always want PCs to remain somewhat open/unfixed and then I'll take the lead from the PCs in approach and, if parley, we'll take the lead on "what happens" from some adjudication on context and the action resolution mechanics.

(b) As it was, it didn't matter, because this was someone else's home game and the NPC possessed Traits that expressed his ship's importance and his own persistent state over other concerns/casualties. Something like My Ship is My Child and All We Have is Our Moment of Consciousness. The Wizard was able to suss out the first Trait in Parley with successful Insight. He promised the ship wouldn't be a casualty and deployed the Geas. At that point it seemed pretty likely that he understood the gravity of the PCs' capabilities (given that they had come this far), so with discretion being the better part of valor and a self-interested NPC, (not to mention that hackneyed adversarialism at a 5th level spell deployed is bad form whether you're facing a level 9 Wizard who has just gotten their 5th level or a level 18 Wizard where it is one among many spells) I could see no reason for the guy to voluntarily take 28 psychic damage and risk his life given the circumstances.

So that is where I left it, with a Take Me To Your Leader transition. I think that covers most/all of what you inquired about?

That is all I have for tonight anyway. Time for bed.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
No, he really didn't. He was primarily concerned with making his exploits known. (Though that was also something of a frequent occurrence: only a few teachers actually taught anything in that class.) But that does not mean that Lockhart was incapable as a wizard (even his non-memory charms) or that his spells didn't fail. By J.K. Rowling's own account on Pottermore, he was talented as a wizard. He was just a vain one who desired to garner more attention. Probably the best summation:
But Gilderoy Lockhart is one wizard among many where spell failure has happened. These are generally mistakes, accidents, and the like.

I think that Gilderoy is probably the perfect example to illustrate the point. In the Harry Potter universe, magic is always reliable and never fails unless you are obviously incompetent and/or for comedic effect.

Someone pointed out the Hogwarts Infirmary and I never saw any character who ended up in the Infirmary ending up being adversely affected even after being petrified by the Basilisk! Madam Pomfrey must be a master Wizard indeed.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I think that Gilderoy is probably the perfect example to illustrate the point. In the Harry Potter universe, magic is always reliable and never fails unless you are obviously incompetent and/or for comedic effect.

Someone pointed out the Hogwarts Infirmary and I never saw any character who ended up in the Infirmary ending up being adversely affected even after being petrified by the Basilisk! Madam Pomfrey must be a master Wizard indeed.
In general, yes, but I would say that spells in the Potterverse are more cantrip-like than D&D's magic system. Magic is meant to be rote, ordinary, and ubiquitous on a level greater than most settings in D&D. Everyone is a wizard apart from infants and squibs. So Madam Pomfrey represents what a school nurse would be like in such a magical world.
 

Aldarc

Legend
And given what you've said above, I have to ask why not, at least in part? 1e - quite possibly without any specific intention to do so - actually did a reasonable job in some ways of reining in the casters and keeping the front-liners relevant through the playable levels of the game and even a bit beyond.
In short, the solutions that 1e presents to the problems it inadvertently also helped create are antiquated to more contemporaneous game design mores. Uneven leveling between classes, for example, would be regarded as anathematic given its persistent absence in 3-5e or the common use of milestone leveling. Or likewise the "super weak now for super strong later" model for wizards also does not hold much water given current playmodes that rarely exceed 8th level. So though you may naturally disagree given your own valid play preferences, I do not think that looking to 1e is necessarily the best way to go about addressing these issues for the current gaming Zeitgeist.

As for possible solutions? I hesitate to say. Numerous possible solutions exist, especially given how other systems tackle the problem, but whether those solutions would be palpable for D&D's fanbase is another matter entirely.

As 4e and the reception of D&D attests, people gleefully accept power expansions for wizards but are reluctant to give them up. 5e did manage to do so, but it benefited from being perceived as a return to normal from 4e, even as it curtailed the excesses of 3e. But I also don't think that 4e's proposed solutions to the problem should be dismissed so easily merely for being part of 4e. Especially given how some of these issues that plagued the reception of 4e were a matter of packaging and presentation rather than content. Furthermore, while tradition is one of D&D's greatest strengths, it also makes it incredibly intractable to change. This is especially true for the spells, spell tiers, and such that have become iconic for wizards and the like. Could you imagine D&D if spellcasting only went to fifth level spells? Or a considerably smaller available spell list? And regarding fighters? My own experience has sadly taught me that people are remarkably hesitant to let fighters have cool and fantastic things. Epic wizards can rewrite the cosmos, but epic fighters are rarely afforded their own mythic class fantasies.

Unserious Brainstorming: One could potentially scale back spells. Beyond the Wall makes spell slots equal to Mage level, going to level 10. Every spell cast costs one slot. (It also uses cantrips and rituals.) If one wanted to preserve spell levels in D&D, one could then propose that a similar system in D&D could have a 2nd level spell cost two slots, a 3rd level spell cost three slots, and so on. You could even choose to scale spells to raise the power level. This seems like a mix of spell lots and a mana pool system. Adjust a possible max number of spell slots for what you find most appropriate. So if you followed the BtW model of spells caster per day equals to class level, then a presumably level 20 character could cast two level 9 spells per day, but not have too much afterwards. But you could then provide the wizard with more sagely in-game utility and such that is not purely magical. Though D&D likes having the wizard as a magical badass, it does not really capture the sage well apart from "you have the appropriate Arcana skill."
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
And regarding fighters? My own experience has sadly taught me that people are remarkably hesitant to let fighters have cool and fantastic things. Epic wizards can rewrite the cosmos, but epic fighters are rarely afforded their own mythic class fantasies.

If you want a Herakles better find a magic item to let you wrestle with death - is just not an answer which makes me happy.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
In short, the solutions that 1e presents to the problems it inadvertently also helped create are antiquated to more contemporaneous game design mores. Uneven leveling between classes, for example, would be regarded as anathematic given its persistent absence in 3-5e or the common use of milestone leveling. Or likewise the "super weak now for super strong later" model for wizards also does not hold much water given current playmodes that rarely exceed 8th level. So though you may naturally disagree given your own valid play preferences, I do not think that looking to 1e is necessarily the best way to go about addressing these issues for the current gaming Zeitgeist.
And those weren't even the 1e-based solutions I was thinking of! :)

I was thinking more along the lines of making casting very interruptable (even being attacked while casting in 1e wrecked the spell, whether the attacker rolled well enough to hit you or not; and taking damage from any source while casting would also wreck a spell) and making it take longer - i.e. reintroducing the idea of casting times - to provide in effect a window of interruption. Do away with and completely ban anything even remotely resembling 'combat casting'. Force casters to roll to aim their spells if cast under pressure or in combat (not RAW 1e; this one's a houserule we brought in decades ago). Bring back bouncing lightning and expanding fireball to make these spells dangerous again. Put wizard-types back to a d4 to make 'em squishier, and if low-level survival is too much of a problem then give 'em two dice at 1st level like 1e Rangers used to have.

By the way, rarely exceeding 8th level isn't new. :) (though I thought the general upper limit was more like 12th-ish, as that's about where a lot of AP's end you up)

As for possible solutions? I hesitate to say. Numerous possible solutions exist, especially given how other systems tackle the problem, but whether those solutions would be palpable for D&D's fanbase is another matter entirely.

As 4e and the reception of D&D attests, people gleefully accept power expansions for wizards but are reluctant to give them up. 5e did manage to do so, but it benefited from being perceived as a return to normal from 4e, even as it curtailed the excesses of 3e.
Yeah, 3e let a lot of cats out of bags it shouldn't have.

But I also don't think that 4e's proposed solutions to the problem should be dismissed so easily merely for being part of 4e. Especially given how some of these issues that plagued the reception of 4e were a matter of packaging and presentation rather than content. Furthermore, while tradition is one of D&D's greatest strengths, it also makes it incredibly intractable to change. This is especially true for the spells, spell tiers, and such that have become iconic for wizards and the like. Could you imagine D&D if spellcasting only went to fifth level spells? Or a considerably smaller available spell list?
Actually, I kinda could imagine that. It would take some serious tweakage to avoid casters running out of new stuff at level-up around 10th level, but it could be done.

But from all I can tell 4e sort of went the other way, making all the other classes work - or be able to work - like casters.

And regarding fighters? My own experience has sadly taught me that people are remarkably hesitant to let fighters have cool and fantastic things. Epic wizards can rewrite the cosmos, but epic fighters are rarely afforded their own mythic class fantasies.
There's a reason for that: fighters - and thieves/rogues, to some extent - are seen as being much more grounded in reality. People want to be able to relate to these classes in a much more straightforward way than they do (or can) to clerics and wizards, who are demonstrably different from our known reality.

I've played lots of both, and I relate to - and play, and want to play - my fighter types and caster types in quite different ways. For the fighters I don't want any complications - no powers, no feats, no nuthin'. Just give me a weapon, give me an opponent, and let me hit it till it falls down...oh, and pass me a beer, will ya? I relate to these guys as people I could go down to the local bar and meet...if the local bar got time-phased back to year 1500. :)

But for the wizards and clerics I accept the complication inherent in having to manage a spell list and at least vaguely know what these spells can do. I relate to them as people when they're not casting, but when they're casting that relationship drifts into gamist mode pretty quickly. The one complication I really despise is pre-memorization of spells; in my own game I've got rid of it.

Unserious Brainstorming: One could potentially scale back spells. Beyond the Wall makes spell slots equal to Mage level, going to level 10. Every spell cast costs one slot. (It also uses cantrips and rituals.) If one wanted to preserve spell levels in D&D, one could then propose that a similar system in D&D could have a 2nd level spell cost two slots, a 3rd level spell cost three slots, and so on. You could even choose to scale spells to raise the power level. This seems like a mix of spell lots and a mana pool system. Adjust a possible max number of spell slots for what you find most appropriate. So if you followed the BtW model of spells caster per day equals to class level, then a presumably level 20 character could cast two level 9 spells per day, but not have too much afterwards. But you could then provide the wizard with more sagely in-game utility and such that is not purely magical. Though D&D likes having the wizard as a magical badass, it does not really capture the sage well apart from "you have the appropriate Arcana skill."
The first way to scale back spells is to do away with non-slot cantrips or at-wills. The second is to put ritual and slot casting into the same system - a spell's a spell no matter how you cast it. The third is to make spells a bit more risky in some cases (see above); or maybe more costly, but that's annoying. The fourth is to look at how some spells got broken particularly by 3e (polymorph, anyone?) and fix them; and here 1e can give some decent guidance. A fifth would be to knock off some spells that trample on the niches of other classes (Knock, Find Traps, Spider Climb - or whatever their current equivalents are) and don't replace them. A sixth would be to make a bunch of spells currently with range of touch have range of self instead - Fly, Silence, Polymorph just to name a few - to rein them in. A seventh way would be to do away with metamagic feats. An eighth would be to do away with slot flexibility - if you're out of 1st level slots but you have some 2nd-level slots left then sorry, you're stuck with casting 2nd-level spells until tomorrow morning; your 1st-level spells are unavailable because you ran 'em out.

The thing I'd give them in return, were it me in charge of all this, is that spell pre-memorization would disappear never to return. All casters would work like 3e Sorcerers - if you have the spell in your book (or on your list, if a cleric) and you have a slot to cast it with then you can cast it. Period. Full wild-card by level. (I do it this way, and the pleasant side-effect has been that I see spells get cast that otherwise would never see the light of day)

As for the sage idea, the problem with a PC knowing so much is it means there's that much less for that PC (and by extension, player) to learn and discover. That said, if you're running a canned setting and one of your players happens to be well-versed in said setting I could see a place for this. :)

Lan-"sometimes the most dangerous thing a 1e party has to face is the friendly fire from their own casters"-efan
 

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