Min/max tricks of the players

[Velenne]

Well it's been a few years now since D&D 3E came out. One of the things that's come to my attention since playing the new edition is that, to an extent, a certain degree of min/max'ing is expected. Encouraged, even.

A lot of time and energy went into balancing these rules. It wasn't perfect, but it was an undertaking that was heretofore unheard of in the industry. My hat's off to WoTC for still pushing the envelope and setting the standard. That said, don't be too put off if you see your players giving their characters a lot of advantages. As it happens (as has been said by now in this thread), not choosing other avenues has also given your players' characters many disadvantages (as noted by the MIN in min/max'ing). Every character has a weakness. To provide your players with encounters that are challenging, it helps to know these weakness and exploit them occasionally.

If your entire group could be accused of min/max'ing, then fight fire with fire. This doesn't mean throwing higher CR monsters at them. If you do, you might end up wanting to hold back some XP, or worse, allowing the PC's to level too fast. Instead, try min/max'ing your monsters! The stats and feats presented in the MM are for average monsters. Much as the iconic characters represent average adventurers. If you think min/max'ing monsters raises their CR, ask yourself this: Does min/max'ing a character give it an ECL?

To sum up:

1.) Know and exploit the party's weaknesses from time to time.
2.) If the players are min/max'ing, the DM can too. It's only fair!

 

[Jeremy]

<ups the stats of his undead dragon>

"a certain degree of min/max'ing is expected. Encouraged, even."

You might say we are encouraged to love...

Hayden flashback.. Sorry..

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

i think what a lot of folks here a re trying to say is this: munchkin-ing or powergaming can largely be a perception.

my sorcerer got a rat as a familiar(specifically a kangaroo rat) because after a ceratin lvl, it can talk with animals of its kind...ever been someplace without rats or mice?

if your players are taking advantage of the world, change their perceptions of what is important....

Excellent points.

The toad is the not the clear superior choice. The toad is the safest choice if you fight a lot.

Rats, ravens, bats, cats are all more useful if you do more than slugfests.

 

[Breakstone]

Here's my 2 cents on the matter:

Some people are suggesting giving the characters encounters that are more useful for a flying familiar, or a different summoned monster, or encounters that punish the fighter for only using the two bastard swords.

However, I think the players are simply using what they like, and are having fun doing it.

This is what I would do:

I'd give the wizard instances in which his toad would be useful. Say there's a small, fist-width hole in the ground that leads directly to the evil warlord's Dungeon throne room. Who could possibly fit in the hole and spy on the evil warlord?

If the player's are befuddled, have the toad suddenly (telepathically) say "Me hungry." The toad could even refuse to go unless fed.

Not only will this allow the wizard to use his familiar in a way he hadn't thought of before, but it may even encourage him to actually stat out his toad and take care of it.

You could even give the toad a +2 to rolls (favorable conditions) when fed more, and a -2 when fed less.

You're not punishing the wizard, but you're teaching him how his decisions will affect him.


For the fighter:

Make him famous for his double-bastard sword style that's rarely seen. Reward him for being creative in that way. If the player's having fun, why not?

Then throw villains at him using different sorts of weapons, and show them how those weapons are effective. You're not making the fighter useless, or punishing him, but you are showing him different options.

And, who knows, he might even decide to pick up one of the dead enemy's weapons and use it in the next battle!


I think some people have too much of a DM vs Players attitude (God knows I've had it for a while), and even if it's not much the attitude can get in the way of having fun. If the players are having fun, encourage it.

 

[Zerovoid]

First of all, I think toad familiars are really lame, so I am going to house rule them away. Its annoying when the wizards have the most hitpoints, and I've never seen a player roleplay having their toad familiar once. Its especially bad when the party includes a bunch of multiclassed fighter/wizards.

Double bastard sword style is just stupid, so let they player do it if they want. In my game, they use bastard sword/ short sword, to avoid taking a combined -4 to hit. Also, that particular player wasnt' that creative with feats, and had no problem forgoing power attack, sunder, etc... to get weapon focus and specialization in both those weapons. It actually worked out pretty well for them.

 

[Plane Sailing]

One of my players has a raven familiar, and I do the RP'ing for it. Ravens are great, because they get to talk much earlier than any of the other familiars. His raven (Awk) keeps pestering him for "tasty treats" after battles... he means eyeballs. He loves using the empathic link while he's squishing eyeballs...

My Paladin/Sorcerer has a toad familiar called Rorshach, and he came in very useful when we were trying to rescue people after an earthquake collapsed some buildings. Rorshach was able to crawl through tiny cracks and find the ones that were still alive. Sure it was slow work but hey!

 

[Richards]

An elf sorcerer in my gaming group has a toad familiar named Pyracor. She taught the thing to pour healing potions down her mouth when she falls to the ground unconscious. Pyracor wears a little harness that can hold two potions, one on each side.

Heh heh heh...That stupid toad's saved the group from a TPK on more than one instance, and there's nothing my oldest son hates more than "getting saved by the toad again..."

Johnathan

 

[Templetroll]

Sometimes there are reasons to min/max.

After a couple of my non-min/maxed wizards died in current DM's campaign, the most recent being a 4th level wizard with 7 hit points that went to -26 hits due to dragon breath, I chose to create a character that could survive.

dwarf wizard with a toad familiar and boosted his Con at 4th level. His Con is now 22 and the DM refused to allow me to get the extra hit for the previous three levels since I was a "damn powergamer!" I smiled and shrugged my shoulders and mentioned I might need to take Toughness for my next Feat.

The party had a quarterstaff that was -1 to hit but +5 on damage so I took Ambidexterity and Two Weapon Fighting since I fully expected that they would hand me the staff. They also gave me my previous character's spellbook, and one captured from a villian mage.

My dwarf is about mid level on hits in the party, my toad is about as tough as the lowest hit character. Even with all his hits he has been down to a few hits several times and been knocked unconcious a couple of times. The DM likes to run rugged encounters and more than one encounter in 24 hours. It causes us to have to be careful about when and how to use the really potent spells and which to save 'just in case'.

The DM's suggestion for my 6th level was to take a level of Fighter. and he calls me a powergamer!

 

[Templetroll]

First of all, I think toad familiars are really lame, so I am going to house rule them away. Its annoying when the wizards have the most hitpoints, and I've never seen a player roleplay having their toad familiar once.

I've used the toad familiar to scout with and guard our rear since it has such a great Hide bonus (+21!!).

A DM should give the familiars personalities, just like any NPC. The PC should work to make certain that they care for the familiar and not just consider it something like their spellbook.

 

[rounser]

"Worst case scenario" with dwarf wizard on 20 con + toad familiar is 1d4 + 6 HP per level, for an average of 8-9 per level. Big whoop. Under point buy, with 20 CON, that PC has paid through the nose for the privilege of surviving the next ice storm to get thrown at the party - their INT has probably suffered as a result...that's specialising, not powergaming! I suppose said DM would have no problems with a 20 strength half orc, because that's culturally acceptable in D&D circles! I know which specialist PC I'd rather have in a campaign. Double standards, eh?

As for the twin-bastard swords thing, it's such a sub-optimal fighting style even if you burn all your feats on it that I suggest anyone considering Rule 0-ing it return to their books and do the math...