Mind blank vs True seeing and divinations

[Joker]

Funny how every time this thread comes up, the same people use the same arguments to absolutely no avail.
Ah, I wish we were back in the good old days where we could just bash each other's heads in and let that settle a dispute .

Just to complete the madness:

*I* interpret Mind Blank as blocking a subset of divinitions. I.e. someone attacking a MBed creature using True Strike would not have his bonus to attack negated. Same for Moment of Prescience.

And no, in this thread I'm not going to get into the semantics of "divinition" "mind" "RAW" "designer intent" and other such nonsense.

As to what I feel the answer to your question is. True Seeing or See invisibility works fine against a MBed creature. If only to stop the horrific Gr. Invisibility + Mind Blank combo.

Have a good one. Or not. See if I care .

 

[Thanee]

If only to stop the horrific Gr. Invisibility + Mind Blank combo.

There's Superior Invisibility for that, now.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

I do.

It does not allow you to obtain information about the subject, it only allows you to pierce magic used to obfuscate the subject.

In a broad sense, of course, looking at a polymorphed creature with True Seeing, allowing you to see it in its natural form, does give you some information about the subject (what it looks like), but that's not what I understand as information gathering.

Thanee,

I do not know what you look like. All I see is this very cute chick you have shown here on the boards. But, if I did find out what you look like and that you are not this cute chick, that might gather more information than I actually want to know.

 

[Thanee]

Well, I see a difference there, between obtaining information about the subject and defeating spells that are meant to prevent that.

In both cases you will know something in the end, but the spells are used in a different fashion. The information you gain in the second case is not gathered by the spell, but by your natural vision. The spell only makes it possible to do so. An information gathering spell directly gives you information.

It's a thin line, which I am certainly aware of, but that's how I see it.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Jack Simth]

Would that mean See Invisibility/True Sight should not let you see natives to the Etherial plane who are currently on the Etherial Plane? You wouldn't be able to see them normally, and no concealment type spells are necessarily involved.

 

[Thanee]

True Seeing does a number of things:

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces).

But it does not gather information (in the sense described above) about the observed subjects.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Jack Simth]

Don't get me wrong; it gives you that ability; the suggestion was not that it does not give the ability to see etherial things, but that (if it acts as a brushing away of magic impediments to seeing what's really there, as you suggested a post or two ago) but that, with such an interpertation of how True Sight functions, that it should not do so, as there is no magical impediment blocking sight in such a case.

Now consider the case of a Mind Blanked Native (MBN) to the Etherial Plane - a Material Mage (MM) couldn't see the MBN normally, there is no illusion or transmutation blocking the MM from seeing the MBN, but the MM can't see the MBN. Should True Sight let the MM see the MBN? If it does, how is that not information gathering, similar to, say, a Scrying attempt?

Mind you, I'm personally of the opinion that there's a lot of wiggle room in the assorted spell descriptions (making it a DM judgement call, as so many things are), but that True Sight and See Invisible both should get past a Mind Blank (at least for those on the same plane) but that Nondetection should function normally against them as Nondetection gives a defense without giving a sure defense.

 

[Thanee]

...as there is no magical impediment blocking sight in such a case.

What I meant is, that as I see it, True Seeing has a few different abilities, one of which is the ability to see into the ethereal plane, another is to see beyond magical obfuscations. It also lets you see in nonmagical darkness or invisible things, regardless of whether magic is involved or not.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Should True Sight let the MM see the MBN?

Of course, it's one of its effects.

If it does, how is that not information gathering, similar to, say, a Scrying attempt?

Scrying is likewise not information gathering... it's specifically prevented by Mind Blank, but not because it is information gathering, but because it uses a magical sensor.

But yes, the spell description can hardly be called clear on that subject and is widely open to interpretation. This is mine, as requested by the OP.

What is your ruling or how do you understand the kind of protection granted by the Mind Blank spell?

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

Well, I see a difference there, between obtaining information about the subject and defeating spells that are meant to prevent that.

In both cases you will know something in the end, but the spells are used in a different fashion. The information you gain in the second case is not gathered by the spell, but by your natural vision. The spell only makes it possible to do so. An information gathering spell directly gives you information.

True Seeing has the power to break through magic that hides or distorts an opponent.

True Seeing does not have the power to break through magic that protects the opponent from divinations. You are giving it power that is not written in the True Seeing spell by doing so. True Seeing cannot break through Nondetection either without the roll being made.

Your natural vision does not give you the ability to see the true form of a Polymorphed creature. Sorry, but your "natural vision" argument does not make sense.


I realy am confused that people want to give so much power to True Seeing that the spell does not have. It defeats an entire school of Magic (Illusions), but it does not defeat anti-divination spells.


Note: Nondetection is not as potent as Mind Blank. Nondetection does not prevent divination spells like Commune that go to a third party source because Nondetection only protects the warded creature and does not protect against "information gathering" divination spells. It only protects against divination spells that specfically target the creature or its area.

Mind Blank, on the other hand, protects against any divination spell that gathers information on the creature including True Seeing. I find it strange that you admit that True Seeing gathers information, but then qualify the type of information gained. Mind Blank does not put any such limits on the information gained.