Minion Fist Fights

[Lizard]

What's a "generic orc?" Would that be a skirmisher? a brute? a controller?

It would be an orc standing in line at Orc School, trying to decide if he's going to major in Axe-Thrower or Head-basher.

As you say, creatures have a race and a class -- what's an orc look like with no class in 4e?

(Like every other orc! Badum-BUM!)

But, seriously, in 3x, generic orcs were level 1 warriors -- so you could strip off the 'warrior' (+1 BAB, +2 Fort save, etc), and replace it with something else very easily -- adept, rogue, ranger, warlock, whatever. How do I get down to the "Raw Orc" in 4e?

 

[Lizard]

To be more precise, that sounds like a game run by an idiot. The fact that minion rules can be used badly does not preclude them being used well. Bad games, you will always have with you...

How is this being used badly, or even incorrectly? The RAW are pretty clear -- one point, minion dies. If something fifty feet tall and dripping acid from its 90 mouths is a "minion", a peasant, a pitchfork, and a Nat 20 spell its doom.

And there ARE Epic Minions, with all that implies.

 

[Rex Blunder]

Andor, your argument against minions is that you could, inexplicably, set up a single, giant, set-piece opponent who you decided to make a MINION. Correct?

 

[DM_Blake]

A 5th level fighter runs up on a 5th level commoner. What happens?

Minions to me at least represent the commoner better then the commoner ever did. Sure maybe there will be minion Dragons and minion Devils... But maybe not unless you decide you want them there.

They give you a good mix of commoner with soldier.

I think they do a great job of representing the common soldier. They arenn't Achilles... They're that soldier that runs up on Achiles and gets taken out on a side swipe.

Sure like any soldier they might kknow how to dish out some hurting... They just don't have that edge. That somthign that makes them the BBEG... So like any normal person a stab to the gut kills them.

So they don't take damage from a miss. It doesn't matter neither does the BBEG... His abuility to resist getting killed goes down though. So does the Minions... You just don't need to track it because chances are, you won't miss him again.

Why is the commoner 5th level?

Doesn't the very fact that he is 5th level indicate something? Doesn't it mean he's been around, fought some wars, done his bit chasing goblins and kobolds off the farm, gained some levels that are represented in increased HP, attack modifiers, skills, etc.?

So, if you want your 5th level fighter to one-shot a commoner, make him a true commoner. 1st level, no experience, no wars, rading parties, or other events under his belt.

But, if he is 5th level, then don't make those additional 4 levels meaningless by saying "oh, yeah, he's fought in wars, he's fended off raiding parties from his farm, but he still only has 1 hp and any player who sneezes his direction will kill him outright".

Either give him 5 levels, or don't. Why would you give the levels and then invalidate them by applying some kind of minion status/template to rob him of everything the levels gave him?

 

[Kishin]

Actually I was thinking of the movie. Particularly this scene. Legolas never interacts with a Mumakil in the book.

But no, hey, you're right. "We're fighting a 40' tall elephant thing? I throw a butterknife at it's toe." "Good call, it was a minion and it dies." sounds like a much more enjoyable game.

The Mumakil in that scene could have been a minion, and that could have been Legolas' DM or Legolas' player describing how he disposed of it.

Inconceivable, right? Nope.

 

[Andor]

Andor, your argument against minions is that you could, inexplicably, set up a single, giant, set-piece opponent who you decided to make a MINION. Correct?

Nope. That would be a strawman arguement because it presupposes a really incompetant GM, rather than a merely medicore one.

My problem is that once you get past commoners and goblins the difference between a minion and the guy standing next to him that looks just like him becomes so extreme that the minion rules become plainly visible in game, such that the characters cannot fail to notice them. And that interferes with my suspension of disbelief, to the detriment of my enjoyment of the game.

I will admit that it is possible for a skilled GM to use the minion rules or something similar in a way that might enhance the game, with judicious application.

I fear however that outside of the hands of that excellent GM (who probably didn't need WotC holding his hand anyway) the minion rules are going to detract from the game in a big way.

 

[Scribble]

But no, hey, you're right. "We're fighting a 40' tall elephant thing? I throw a butterknife at it's toe." "Good call, it was a minion and it dies." sounds like a much more enjoyable game.

Ah you got me there... I totaly forgot about called shots... wait... I didn't because they don't exist! For this same reason. If they did the game devolves into who can shoot out who's eye fastest.

If you are assuming that you threw a butterknife at the monster's toe and it died... the problem lies with YOU not the game.

The rules of the game are assuming your character is attacking the monster in the best way possible in any given attack.

Ok you used a butterknife... But you managed to jam that thing into the minions brain.

Doesn't the very fact that he is 5th level indicate something? Doesn't it mean he's been around, fought some wars, done his bit chasing goblins and kobolds off the farm, gained some levels that are represented in increased HP, attack modifiers, skills, etc.?

Because he's not an inexperienced commoner. He has experience and know how, and can even dish out some hurt.

In game terms he is a threat to the PCs. He's not just something they ignore and run past because the AoO probably won't hit them and if it does won't do any damage worth caring about.

The minion just doesn't have that edge that non minions have. That thing that allows them to shrug off attacks as "flesh wounds" or manage to duck just in time.

A PC is captain kirk or rambo, or John McClain... Minions are the random unnamed terrorists and aliens that run up on them and can still kill them, but can't shrug off any kind of real attack.

Again you could give them say 10 HP and let them take damage from a miss... The chances of you're missing them twice though is so low... it's just an added step. A time waster.

But, seriously, in 3x, generic orcs were level 1 warriors -- so you could strip off the 'warrior' (+1 BAB, +2 Fort save, etc), and replace it with something else very easily -- adept, rogue, ranger, warlock, whatever. How do I get down to the "Raw Orc" in 4e?

Same way you did in 3e, only even easier. Just like you could strip a PC down to it's raw raceness.

A race is nothing more then a set of racial modifiers and bonuses. Seems like Orcs have at least fast charge as their bonus. Probably a few other things you could dig out of there.

The work has just been done already for 4e. They have some common monsters. Wich works GREAT for me. I don't have all that much free time to spend hours making custom ranger orcs or sorcerer orcs... If you have that time? Awesome you'll still be able to spend it in 4e. The default just doesn't assume you do. Which is good.

 

[Mallus]

How is this being used badly, or even incorrectly? The RAW are pretty clear -- one point, minion dies. If something fifty feet tall and dripping acid from its 90 mouths is a "minion", a peasant, a pitchfork, and a Nat 20 spell its doom.

It would be idiotic for a DM to designate one of the principle opponents as a 'minion'. And if the mammoth isn't meant to be a principle opponent, who cares?

And as I wrote earlier, the existence of a class of opponents that are both 1) fearsome and 2) able to be killed by normal people is a welcome addition to the system, as far as I'm concerned.

And there ARE Epic Minions, with all that implies.

It implies the system scales. What else were you thinking of? Does it need to said that 'minions should only be used where appropriate'?

 

[Mallus]

And that interferes with my suspension of disbelief, to the detriment of my enjoyment of the game.

Perhaps you should consider considering 'suspension of disbelief' as something you-as-a-player are also, in part, responsible for creating and maintaining, rather than treating it as something owed to you by the DM and rules system.

Maybe this should be a corollary to hong's Second Law of Fantasy: "If you absolutely have to think too much about fantasy, think about it making sense".

 

[Rex Blunder]

I still don't understand how anyone's suspension of disbelief could be broken by minions but not by hit points.

HIT POINTS.

There's no way I can kill this unarmed wizard by stabbing him with this sword. He has 40 HP, and my max damage is 20 HP!

This is not a realistic system, nor one that successfully models literature. As a simulation is is the dismalest of dismal failures!

However, it makes for good gameplay.

Minions are no worse. Better, I suspect.