Minion version of insubstantial/vulnerable monster?

[msherman]

I'm trying to make a minion version of a monster with insubstantial/vulnerable. How could that be modelled with the minion mechanic?

Edit: The specific monsters I'm looking at are the two level 1 Fell Taints, if that makes a difference.

 

[Trebor62]

Since this is a minion insubstantial cant serve its usual funtion of reducing damage, therefore I would eitlher treat it as some value of damage reduction or increase the defenses to make it tougher to hit. I would lean toward increasing the defenses by about 5 across the board.

Or you could model the insubstantial by giving the minion a save when it takes damage. Pass no damage, fail take damage and the minion dies as normal.

With this approach you could then model the vulnerability with either a penalty to the save, or treating the save as an automatic failure, i.e. an attack to which it is vulnerable that hits kills it outright just like a normal minion dies when hit.

Hope this helps

 

[mneme]

While you don't want to go overboard on it, giving a minion the Displacer Beast's ability might be apropos. It's a dangerous ability to use in 4e, but might be appropriate for minions who one would like to survive (maybe) more than one hit.

I'd do a vulnerability by having the minion have a minus to defenses against the appropriate damage/attack type.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm trying to make a minion version of a monster with insubstantial/vulnerable. How could that be modelled with the minion mechanic?

Edit: The specific monsters I'm looking at are the two level 1 Fell Taints, if that makes a difference.

I am not sure - do you have seen the Fell Taint Minions in MM2 or the Creature Incarnations article from DDI (Not sure where they appeared first.) Or have you not and want to create something like them?

Their insubstantial quality is modeled with a save the first time they take damage - on a succesful save, they survive.

Vulnerability could be modeled by ignoring the usual guideline on "no damage on a miss" for attacks with the vulnerabilities descriptor. Maybe with a save, like above.

 

[Mengu]

Just make it a two hit minion, with the vulnerability taking away both hits.

When the minion would be destroyed, it is instead bloodied. If it was already bloodied, it is destroyed. If it takes radiant damage (or whatever its vulnerability), it is destroyed whether it was bloodied or not.

 

[msherman]

Ah, one more reason for me to get a DDI subscription. How's the monster builder looking these days, is it more usable than when it was first released?

Another idea I had for the psychic vulnerability was to have a second minion within 5sq also die when a minion is killed by psychic damage. What do you think of that?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Ah, one more reason for me to get a DDI subscription. How's the monster builder looking these days, is it more usable than when it was first released?

Seems to work pretty well, definitely better than the initial beta release.

Another idea I had for the psychic vulnerability was to have a second minion within 5sq also die when a minion is killed by psychic damage. What do you think of that?

Might work, too, though are you sure the flavor makes sense? Are the Fell Taints mentally linked with each other? Either way, I might also add a save against the effect.

 

[Mahali]

Could make them 2 shot mooks. Sometimes I've done that instead of doubling the number.

 

[the Jester]

In order to avoid bookkeeping/tracking issues with large groups of minions, I would simply give them "resist 5 all" and then let a 6-point hit do the job. Anything less, not so much.

I've thought about instituting such a house rule for higher-level minions, too- for instance, my 18th level minions might have resist all 9, in order to make a minimum damage at will not always kill them, but still leaving me without any required tracking.

 

[Mesh Hong]

Since this is a minion insubstantial cant serve its usual funtion of reducing damage, therefore I would eitlher treat it as some value of damage reduction or increase the defenses to make it tougher to hit. I would lean toward increasing the defenses by about 5 across the board.

I would very strongly advise against that. +5 to all defences is a massive increase, especially for a level 1 creature.

Or you could model the insubstantial by giving the minion a save when it takes damage. Pass no damage, fail take damage and the minion dies as normal.

I tried this approach once. I had minions that survived longer than standard creatures because they kept making saves. I havn't repeated the ability because I didn't think it worked that well.

With this approach you could then model the vulnerability with either a penalty to the save, or treating the save as an automatic failure, i.e. an attack to which it is vulnerable that hits kills it outright just like a normal minion dies when hit.

That makes sense and might be worth considering.

What I find myself thinking with the initial question is why bother?

Question:
What is the difference between a normal minion and an insubstantial minion?

Answer:
A normal minion goes thud when it hits the floor.


Seriously though, I would maybe give them a reaction power that did something flavourful that represented their insubstantial quality and leave it at that.

Minions die fast, and no-one weeps at their graveside when they are gone. As I have often said, it is a hard life being a minion.

If you think an encounter with insubstantial minions should be harder then add a couple more of them in at no increase in xp value. Also set up the encounter so that they can make maximum use of their insubstantial nature. Give them phasing as well and have them charge through walls, then try and escape to do the same thing again. Usually if a minion manages to do damage once before it dies it has lead a full and productive life, if a minion manages to deal damage twice then it is a hero.