Minions and hps

No, this is due to the DM using minions with an eye towards tactics.

Given that your entire line of argument seems to imply that any opinion than your own is either failed DMing or lack of intelligence, or some combination thereof, this will be my last response to you on this topic.

Your opinion is different from mine and many others. My players dislike being able to kill minions by walking up to them or using a minor action to curse them. They chose to have a house rule. I'm not inflicting my rule on anyone.

Thusly, you are wrong for my group. You may be right for your group. That doesn't imply character or mental flaws on either of our parts, or those of our players, any more than it's an intrinsic flaw that makes someone like 7th Sea or GURPs over D&D.

So, once again, discouraging discussion amongst those who are cheerfully discussing options isn't helpful. The next cool idea (like so many that made their way into 4e) is only going to happen if people try to find it.

Cheers.
 

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I've done a few high level trial runs, and I didn't notice minions being useless to be a problem. But then again, I didn't use zounds of them. I put 4 to 8 in an encounter, and fully expect them to be dispatched easily. But I can see where you guys are coming from. Dragonborns and Warlocks killing minions as minor action, and a number of daily/encounter powers killing them as minor or no actions does make the minion a bit pointless.

For my low level game this hasn't become a problem yet, but I'll be paying attention. I was fully intending to make some minions more resilient. For instance I made the following modification to Zombies:

When a Zombie Minion would normally be destroyed, they are instead knocked down. If they take any damage while knocked down, they are destroyed. Otherwise they make a saving throw on their turn. If they fail, they twitch one final time, attack an adjacent target while prone, and they die. If they succeed, they act normally.

Similar modifications could be made to minions, even on a per encounter basis. For instance for one encounter where there are 4 Ogre Thugs, I could use Keterys's solution, and the next encounter when there are 16 Ogre Thugs, I could use a damage threshold. If the Wizard and the Dragonborn's players didn't make it to the game that day, and their characters stayed back at the camp, those 16 Ogre Thugs would be downgraded to their normal selves on the fly.

4e gives us all these cool tools to make encounters interesting. Minions are just one of those tools. If they work as is, great. If not, I make them work.
 

When a Zombie Minion would normally be destroyed, they are instead knocked down. If they take any damage while knocked down, they are destroyed. Otherwise they make a saving throw on their turn. If they fail, they twitch one final time, attack an adjacent target while prone, and they die. If they succeed, they act normally.

I like that a lot. I'll post it to my group and see if they like it better than wound levels based on tiers. Thanks!
 

When a Zombie Minion would normally be destroyed ... and the next encounter when there are 16 Ogre Thugs, I could use a damage threshold.

I've definitely been considering having different approaches within the same game like that, yep! For example, I was thinking maybe a flat resist all 2 / 4 / 6 (by tier), or similar, for some minions that are tough. I don't think I'd switch Ogre Thugs from one encounter to working different in the next, though. I don't want to confuse the players excessively.

In the end, since the players wanted misses to be less frustrating I decided _that_ rule at least had to be consistent, but if you're not interested in that aspect, then it's a lot easier to switch things up.
 

But, this is such a silly corner case anyway.
A leader monster with a bunch of minions is a corner case? :erm:

There is exactly one creature in the MM that gives temporary hit points to other creatures
There are plenty of templates which grant them, but whatever. The point is: minions should interact well with leader critters.

There are much more flawed rules in the game system that need house rules than this (...) not even come close to being on any serious DM radar.
Did you just insult everyone in this thread? Look, if you don't want these rules, feel free to not work on them.

Tracking temporary hp for minions is an extremely poor idea.
Well, yeah. That's why I don't like the RAW. But maybe I'm thinking of the wrong thing... isn't your proposal based on number of hits, independent of damage value?

Can you think of any solution that is more logical for handling temp hp for minions?
IMHO the one I posted earlier did this pretty well -- damage threshold, Bloodied if you don't punch through the DT, and killed with any damage once Bloodied. Temp HP add to DT, so leaders get all their benefits. Brutes can be Minion-ized by increasing their DT; Skirmishers by lowering their DT -- and both of these work similar to how HP and defenses are related to these critter roles.

Temp HP (or any other healing) applied to a bloodied minion makes him un-bloodied.

One bit of information per minion (bloodied or not), plus one integer per minion type (DT). IMHO, it's very easy to track, yet is a rich enough model to encompass pretty much everything you'd possibly want to do with a minion.

Cheers, -- N
 

My only problem with this whole minions issue, is that, no matter who's playing, Minions will always encourage metagame thinking (and I think that's a bad thing)...


...but that's a problem with the players and not with the minions... or is it not?
 

IMHO the one I posted earlier did this pretty well -- damage threshold, Bloodied if you don't punch through the DT, and killed with any damage once Bloodied. Temp HP add to DT, so leaders get all their benefits. Brutes can be Minion-ized by increasing their DT; Skirmishers by lowering their DT -- and both of these work similar to how HP and defenses are related to these critter roles.

Yep - and I supported the idea back when it first came up, though I'd suggested it as rules for Grunts, monsters specifically tougher than minions, rather than for all minions.

I worry about tracking damage thresholds for minions getting complicated, but I'm very curious how well it plays. I still hit a wall when I think of, say, Scorching Burst not killing a minion though.

At any rate, temp HP adding to DT means that you're having to track hp of the minion. Which is why I think it's a bad idea - we should only track so much data for minions. Bloodied? Sure. DT? Okay. Add temp into it and I think you're going too far, because now some minions have one value and others have another.

This could get even more complex when a new source of temp hp unbloodies the minion so you're flipping the bloodied bit back and forth, as well as increasing (and lowering back, presumably) the DT.

On that particular aspect, I don't like the idea that a bloodied minion with a DT of 15 might gain 1 temp hp and gain back its full DT. That's a far greater gain than other types of critters. It also makes something like an aura of 'Allies in the aura gain X temporary hit points' very odd with minions.

One bit of information per minion (bloodied or not), plus one integer per minion type (DT). IMHO, it's very easy to track, yet is a rich enough model to encompass pretty much everything you'd possibly want to do with a minion.

Sure - I just don't like the additional temp hp overhead. I also am not big on the idea of saying "Okay, we're ignoring hp for these guys. Except sometimes."

When you put 8 minions out, I want their stats to be the same. The players can mark 'em bloodied and take 'em off, no muss no fuss.

DT thought: Brutes +2, Lurkers/Artillery -2. Damage baseline otherwise set so it's very easily pierced by any full damage attack, but an attack without stat added or just stat (ie, 1W or flat Str) not necessarily. Other than Cleave, are there any powers that seem clearly built for dealing with minions (instead of incidental bonus damage) that DT really screws with?
 

A leader monster with a bunch of minions is a corner case?

A leader monster that:

a) is a Kobold Wyrmpriest or
b) is a Warlord Template (or possibly a Cleric Template using an At Will power when he can be using Encounter and Daily powers, or possibly a Paladin Template with Righteous Smite, 3 templates out of 8 and 1 out of 3 is fairly worthless)

and

c) actually takes a Temporary Hit Point power when other powers are typically better

and

d) that Temporary Hit Point power adds more than 3 or 4 hit points where it really matters

and

e) that Temporary Hit Point power is actually used on more than one minion (since most THP powers are single target and even if not, minions get wiped out quickly and will often not be around long enough for a Leader to actually use the power unless he uses it in round one or two)

is definitely a corner case.


You consider this common and enough of a pain for a DM to be worthy of a house rule??? You don't think that a template monster designed to both be a leader and to have minion allies should not get full advantage of the normal THP rules if he has those types of powers? :lol:

Now you are arguing just to argue. This is definitely a corner case for the number of times it will actually significantly matter in anyone's game, even if they do use a lot of templates (which I suspect is not the norm).

If it happens a lot in your game and you want to neuter your Leader Templates, fine. Make a house rule. But, don't pretend that it really happens a lot and actually needs a house rule.

The normal rule is fine because a Leader Template should be able to protect his minions. What good is a Leader that cannot protect his minions? What kind of challenge is that? :lol:
 



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