Minions and hps

[Samurai]

Remember that AOE spells like Scorching Burst have one die roll for damage. A Level 12 wizard should have a +2 or +3 implement, 1d6 damage + 5 INT, so that's 8 or 9 minimum (good incentive to have the +3 implement if 9 is the threshold). With the +3 implement, that's +14 (=+5 INT + 3 implement + 6 half level) vs Reflex, given at 22, requires 8+ to hit (65% chance). So the wizard will actually kill 2/3 of them.

If the threshold is 11 instead, then it depends on that 1d6 roll, so the wizard now has about a 66% chance of killing 66% and a 33% of just bloodying 66%. Assuming I can do math , we get 45% dead on average (assuming the same number in the burst).

So I guess it's up to what you think is good.

I try hard not to clump my minions such that more than 2 can be hit by a burst 1 attack, but this is really hard in dungeons (KoTS). I've found them to be rather ineffective when they don't have ranged attacks (Goblins)... the Kobolds were at least a threat with Javelins.

IMO, 45-66% dead in 1 use of a 1st level at will power is plenty. As I said before, if you really want to take out a mob of minions, use an Encounter or even a Daily power, as those will almost definitely kill them all, no problem. I want Minions to have a decent chance of surviving an at will power, such that using something stronger is no longer a foolish waste of resources, but a tactically sound idea!

 

[Saeviomagy]

Too bad it came straight out of Pyramid of Shadows from WotC. It appears that at least one WotC designer disagrees with you.

And, there is a difference between an easy encounter and one where 12 minions out of 16 are auto-killed in round one using one encounter power (if played as per module design). That's beyond easy and into the "not worth rolling the dice" category.

Btw, they were rats, not zombies. I just forgot because we did not have all of our miniatures at the game and used zombie miniatures for the encounter.

It looks like a pretty badly designed encounter. You're paragon tier, there's nothing but minions, and if they're rats, the biggest minion ones I can find are only level 7.

That makes it an all-minion encounter at 4 levels below the party, and you happened to have the perfect position and the perfect feat to deal with them. Even non-minions would be a pushover in that situation. Just with more die rolling.

I'm also not entirely sure why they didn't stop and attack the rogue instead of giving him OAs?

 

[keterys]

Pyramid is for level 7 - 10... so I imagine their level was fairly close to the party's.

Or... at least it should have been.

 

[Staffan]

Why on earth did they have such low defenses?

Both paladins and rogues have an at-will attack that's exeptionally good at hitting. Rogues have Piercing Strike (Weapon power vs Reflex - getting the weapon proficiency bonus against a non-AC defense is great), and paladins get Valiant Strike (+1 to hit per adjacent opponent - at least +1 to hit over a basic attack, and it would be extra juicy in a fight full of minions).

 

[KarinsDad]

Which is why it's a badly designed encounter.

Not exactly.

16 lesser opponents is conceptionally a fine encounter, even a challenging encounter. This equates to fun. The concept of fighting 16 mooks is a perfectly fine FRPG concept.

The problem is that the 4E rules, especially as levels get higher, drop this perfectly fine concept on the floor due to badly designed game mechanics.

16 lesser opponents in a game system where the powers and minion mechanics allow for NPC insta-kill (no save, no roll to hit required, etc.) with certain powers (e.g. Winter's Wrath) is not a problem with the encounter. It's a problem with the ruleset. This does not equate to fun. It's more boring than playing a computer game with cheat codes. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Mad Hamish]

Not exactly.

16 lesser opponents is conceptionally a fine encounter, even a challenging encounter. This equates to fun. The concept of fighting 16 mooks is a perfectly fine FRPG concept.

If that's what you want from the encounter then the mooks aren't all minions.

The problem is that the 4E rules, especially as levels get higher, drop this perfectly fine concept on the floor due to badly designed game mechanics.

Or because people are using the wrong mechanics for what they want.

16 lesser opponents in a game system where the powers and minion mechanics allow for NPC insta-kill (no save, no roll to hit required, etc.) with certain powers (e.g. Winter's Wrath) is not a problem with the encounter. It's a problem with the ruleset. This does not equate to fun. It's more boring than playing a computer game with cheat codes. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Then don't create that encounter with all minions.
Create it with a mix of minions and some level approriate (or near level appropriate) foes.

 

[Atropos]

This thread is a prime example of poor craftsmen blaming their tools. Every "faulty" encounter presented here leaves me shaking my head at what the DM was actually expecting would happen, as opposed to what did happen. Throwing 20 under-leveled minions through a guarded doorway? Ganging up on a fighter in a minion-killer stance or a Warlock with Armor of Agathys? That's poor tactics, but not as asinine as this gem:

When the DM has to change his encounter design plans due to a game design element, it means that the game design element is flawed.

Of course. The DM should never have to take the rules of the game or the capabilities of the party into account when designing encounters. He should be free. Free as birds in the sky!

 

[Tharizdun]

It seems to me that a lot of you guys want to cover up badly designed encounters by fidling with the rules.

 

[Holy Bovine]

It seems to me that a lot of you guys want to cover up badly designed encounters by fidling with the rules.

So when I said it was a poorly designed encounter I was covering up? Really? I think you need to re read a lot of the posts here. I don't think anyone has said that the encounter Karin's Dad described was anything but badly designed.

 

[Nebulous]

I've found that with a controller in the group, minions are obliterated easily. Killed so easily in fact, i have used them very freeform...in other words, they keep coming as the encounter continues until I feel like it has reached the proper level of tension and danger. But of course to really make it a threat the minions must be bolstered by tougher allies.