Minis and Grids, do you use them?

[Quasqueton]

AD&D came out of miniatures wargames, but the fact is that the Lake Geneva campaign didn't much use them, and the rules don't assume their use, whereas 3E does. Rear and flank attacks don't require miniatures, just the DM having an idea of who's facing whom. I dare say that their recommendation early in the DMG -- mainly to show marching order, only secondarily to actually play out movement and fights -- was more due to TSR's miniatures line than the other way round.

My AD&D1 DM screen showed a flanking/rear/shieldless diagram using hexes and squares. [I think this diagram came from the AD&D1 DMG, but I'm not sure.] And I repeat, movement and ranges were given in inches, for tabletop measurement.

All AD&D maps had a square grid -- no need for that if you aren't keeping track on a tabletop (could just use a scale at the bottom corner like real world maps). And many AD&D modules had tactical maps showing the exact placement of monsters and obstacles in the encounter. Many AD&D "metagame" illustrations showed folks playing with minis on a tabletop.

Saying AD&D1 wasn't built around the assumption of using minis on some kind of battle grid is a misrepresentation or just fooling yourself.

Most people used minis and battlegrids for their AD&D games, so the D&D3 designers just accepted that paradigm.

Quasqueton

 

[Odhanan]

I am using minis pretty much all the time. I love to paint minis, to use 3D dioramas and so on. My players told me it's a huge part of the fun for them, since all are very visual/concrete types of people. It is interesting to see how a bunch of metal and plastic tokens, no matter how crude, can fire imagination sparks in most people's minds.

I don't see miniatures as impeding imagination. Quite the contrary actually. But it forces the DM to think about what to set up and how before hand. It doesn't negate improvisation at all, but you've got to be ready to improvise before it happens.

I think miniatures are awesome. Some RPGs are better off with them (like the Masquerade/Requiem, for instance), but for D&D and d20 System, this is clearly better.

 

[Henry]

As a counterpoint to the "AD&D didn't use minis" discussion:

I ran a poll on Dragonsfoot.org (a site who mainly supports earlier editions of the game) where the majority of respondents used at least some form of spatial representation during combat. And most of them, judging from the replies in the poll, had always done it that way since they learned from whoever taught them in the group. I don't know if the poll is still there (if it was in Edition Wars, it's gone forever).

For my instance, I started with Basic D&D, and never used minis. When I started gaming with another group years later, their roots were in AD&D, and they taught me to use minis (in this case, risk pieces & Dice) and I never looked back.

Here's the poll: http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1344

Out of 73 respondents, 45 used minis and grids; 59 used at least some form of spatial representation. It's not a huge sample, but it's a good place to check since most of the participants had their start in AD&D.

 

[Aristotle]

Chose the 3rd option. I only use them heavily for combat, but every combat. I have the player's characters out all the time and standing in marching order for a visual reference as to approximately who is where.

 

[ARandomGod]

Saying AD&D1 wasn't built around the assumption of using minis on some kind of battle grid is a misrepresentation or just fooling yourself.

But I can say that there aren't numberous feats and non-optional rules (meaning assumptions in the rules-set) that required the mini's. Certainly mini's help conceptualization.

They didn't have combat reflexes, where really you're only getting multiple attacks of opportunity when you can TELL you are.

Hell, they didn't really have attacks of opportunity. They did have a free attack when you withdrew from combat, which was a kind of AoO, but nothing like 3.X (where withdrawing from combat is actually one way to AVOID getting an AoO).

They didn't have a five foot step. It was not needed. Therefore they didn't have several feats (or rules/abilities) based around the concept of the five foot step. They do in 3.X

And rules/feats/PrC's based around AoO's... not going to happen. Really nearly impossible to adjudicate (beyond some basics) without a map and mini's.

I thought that 3.X game I played with the more narrative (and no maps/mini's) example I meantioned above detailed the differences very well. My character had combat reflexes (because I didn't know the game-style I was coming into). He'd never seen anyone take it. Noone took combat reflexes? Seriously? How could that be? That's an awesome feat. Well, it could be because the gamestyle didn't support it. Not only did I never get to use my additional AoO's during a mass melee combat, I never got a single AoO. I was in the middle of hundreds of guys running around... that seems implausible. Now, I'm sure if I'd meantioned it, he would have done something to incororate my 'ability'. It certainly wouldn't have been according to the rules as written however. They're written with an assumption that you'll see when you can take them.

Of course, that narrative style also better supported the concept of being a few people in the middle of a mass melee chaos. I've only one other time (in a 3.X game, then with maps and mini's) ever HAD a mass combat, and it was ... well represented for what it could be with maps and mini's ... but much much less 'realistic' than the picture painted by the purely narrative style that I was in then.

I know that as the game advanced from "Basic Dungeons and Dragons" it added more and more miniatures options. But the rules-set didn't actually assume them. 3.X does assume them in the core of how it's written.

In the above meantioned narrative style, no maps/mini's game my character had a longbow and a longsword. When I 'attacked' I was never asked if I was using my bow or my sword. It didn't matter... they used the same damage dice.
...
They used different to hit stats however
...
Some of that was my not being familiar with the gamestyle. They probably assumed I was using the appropriate modifier for the appropriate weapon. I assumed I was still using the weapon I initially had out (a bow) and would continue to do so until I meantioned I switched, which I would do when it was told to me that the bow was no longer feasible... and I certainly assumed I was making every effort to stay out of the general melee. (Part of why I didn't meantion combat reflexes!)

I noticed that when the wizard attempted to cast a spell after combat began he had to make a concentration check.

Why? (I thought)

I didn't even begin to imagine that the wizard had entered combat. And if he had, wouldn't he just step away from melee to cast the spell? The wizard didn't bat an eye however. He was a vetran in the group, and in a non map's and mini's game I couldn't tell if he was in melee or not, neither could he... and while I'd never heard him say that he entered melee, perhaps melee surrounded him unavoidably? I don't know...

The game was extremely different (from what I was used to in 3.x). And I've seen 3.X maps and mini's game mass combat where the humans were treated as sort of a swarm (which would have made casting clearly require a concentration check).

Mostly, for me, I have the maps and mini's out there. They're in a general marching order, on blank Tac-tiles. ...
Until they enter a dungeon (or potentially active area). Then things get drawn out. Because without that when does the guy with combat reflexes get to use them? When do ANY AoO's take place? When does the wizard have to make a concentration check as opposed to a five foot step. When does ANYone have to make a five foot step, or use tumble?

Really when can you cleave or great cleave (well, that one's easier to adjudicate). What about bull rushing and overrun? Easier than AoO's, but still more difficult without mini's. Spring attack? Whirlwind attack? Mobility? All of those really are built to assume a map with miniatures on it, you need to be able to really clearly see and point at the positions of people to have these feats work. And that's just from the PHB.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Thousands of miniatures. Digital Map Projector. Best Gaming Set-up Evar.

All minis - all the time. If you had our set-up - you would too.

 

[Kanegrundar]

Thousands of miniatures. Digital Map Projector. Best Gaming Set-up Evar.

All minis - all the time. If you had our set-up - you would too.

I wholeheartedly agree. Steel Wind's set up is absolutely awsome. It's inspired me to start saving up to get a projector and talbe to use it one once my fiancee and I get a new house bought.

Kane