Minis VS. Star Wars D20

[rgard]

Both, thank you.

I don't know...which would I like to give up, the coffee grounds or the water...to make coffee?

In other words, we use both. I would prefer a choice of both for poll. My only complaint with the minis is that they didn't put the RPG stats on the reverse of the card like is done with the D&D minis. In our D&D campaign, I use the rpg side of the minis cards instead of hunting through the various MMs.

I'm firmly in the camp of using minis in when rpging. It reduces confusion big time. There is plenty of discussion in other threads about the merit of using minis so I'll leave it at that.

As for some of the other comments in this thread:

1. There is plenty of crunch in the rule books and I agree with The Gneech on that point. I'd be happy with rules/book updates for the cartoons and the final movie. I don't know how far away the tv series is from airing, but if WotC/Hasbro would hold on to the license until then we could use more updates from that.

I'm not certain how the license is framed...I don't know if WotC has to pay a separate royalty for the RPG and minis or if Hasbro's license covers them as a subsidiary. If WotC is covered then there is no reason to stop support for the RPG other than a lack of sales as people will be buying SW action figures for years to come. If they have to pay separate from Hasbro, then it's a business decision for them.

2. As for the lethal nature of combat in SW...it sure does keep PCs from doing stupid stuff, at least they learn that after awhile. No vitality points for the plebes is a good enough offset for us.

Some other thoughts:

One idea for WotC is to make adventures that are compatible for d20 Future and SWd20. I'm sure there is some overlap between these two markets (the kids who play SWd20 in my store use a couple of the d20 Future books in their SWd20 campaign.) Given the recent decision to start making adventures for D&D, it isn't a huge leap to hope for additional adventure modules for the both games.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Maybe it's a matter of tactics? Generally, when shooting starts the other players duck behind cover

Part of it is probably good tactics. Using feats/cover/etc to max ability, and using the stun setting when they're really outnumbered to lower the number of immediate threats.

2. As for the lethal nature of combat in SW...it sure does keep PCs from doing stupid stuff, at least they learn that after awhile.

See, that's exactly what I'm talking about. The movies weren't about grabbing dirt, digging in, fighting smart, and "lowering the number of immediate threats." The movies were about over-the-top, often just-plain-stupid heroics and drama: Luke pausing in the Death Star hanger, Stormtrooper blaster-fire whizzing around, stunned while he watches Ben battle Vader; Han screaming and chasing Stormtroopers; Han and Luke blowing the crap out of the detention block; Anakin leaping out of a speeder a thousand feet high; Obi-Wan crashing through a window to catch and ride an assassin droid back to its master; Han turning toward a Star Destroyer ...

That's what WEG Star Wars allowed. While I completely agree that playing SW D20 as a tactical exercise will lower the lethality (but still, you guys never get crits?!), playing like that isn't Star Wars.

If this criticism looks familiar, it might be because that's what many Third Edition haters say they despise about the newest version of D&D. And I can understand their argument, except that to me, D&D is largely its own genre, while a game that purports to emulate Star Wars should, well, emulate Star Wars.

 

[BigFreekinGoblinoid]

yeah, i'm confuzzled aussi.



Frukathka, are you asking what minis should be used for a Star Wars game only? and if given a choice between a WotC Star Wars mini and a possilbe third party d02 Star Wars mini, which would we choose?

or are you asking about using d02 WotC minis for a Star Wars game? including all of the possible WotC minis...

I think he's asking: If you only had enough money to buy some boxes of D&D mini's OR spend that money on some SW books, which would you choose? But I could be wrong...

 

[Psion]

Ooh! A star wars edition war! Haven't seen one of these in a while.

See, that's exactly what I'm talking about. The movies weren't about grabbing dirt, digging in, fighting smart, and "lowering the number of immediate threats."

Funny, I saw people ducking behind bulkheads and beating retreats from hordes of stormtroopers at various junctures.

Here's an few more:
In the movies, Luke asks if the dark side is more powerful. Obi Wan says no, it's quicker, more seductive.

This is PRECISELY the way force points work in SWRPG.
But in WEG SW, the Dark Side is more powerful. No two ways about it.

WEG SW also suffers from the excreble "movie/series characters are way above what your feeble PC will ever reach in a lifetime" syndrome. In SWRPG, you can HOPE to be as powerful as luke or as good a pilot as Han. Game authors need to know that even in franchise RPGs, the PCs are the protagonists and central characters, a common trap in the early days of licensed game design.

 

[Kanegrundar]

Psion took the words right out of my mouth.

Kane

 

[rgard]

See, that's exactly what I'm talking about. The movies weren't about grabbing dirt, digging in, fighting smart, and "lowering the number of immediate threats." The movies were about over-the-top, often just-plain-stupid heroics and drama: Luke pausing in the Death Star hanger, Stormtrooper blaster-fire whizzing around, stunned while he watches Ben battle Vader; Han screaming and chasing Stormtroopers; Han and Luke blowing the crap out of the detention block; Anakin leaping out of a speeder a thousand feet high; Obi-Wan crashing through a window to catch and ride an assassin droid back to its master; Han turning toward a Star Destroyer ...

That's what WEG Star Wars allowed. While I completely agree that playing SW D20 as a tactical exercise will lower the lethality (but still, you guys never get crits?!), playing like that isn't Star Wars.

<SNIP>

Star Wars.

Yes, but most of the Death Star action in EP4 was about letting the heroes escape so that the Empire could track them to the Rebel base. May have been alot different for the heroes if Tarkin had decided to not let them get away. You can always work something like that into your campaign.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Ooh! A star wars edition war! Haven't seen one of these in a while.

A "war"? I suspect you have a lot more invested than I do.

Funny, I saw people ducking behind bulkheads

Yeah, so they could throw wisecracks at each other, while blaster bolts whiz past. When's the last time your SW D20 players "wasted" a standard action by having a discussion about garbage chutes? Answer: never, because D20 is all about smart tactics and actions are just too valuable to not be "lowering the number of immediate threats" on your turn.

Even the d20 supporters all talk about "tactics" to lower the lethality of SW D20 and "convince" the PCs not to do "stupid" stuff.

If the movies had been built around SW d20, every single character would have been dead before they got out of Mos Eisley.

and beating retreats from hordes of stormtroopers at various junctures.

Yeah, and how often did they get injured by them? Was one in every 20 shots a life-threatening injury?

In the movies, Luke asks if the dark side is more powerful. Obi Wan says no, it's quicker, more seductive. This is PRECISELY the way force points work in SWRPG.
But in WEG SW, the Dark Side is more powerful. No two ways about it.

That's absolutely true. There's no doubt that's screwed up in WEG Star Wars. But it's a one-sentence house rule. It isn't an entire combat resolution system.

WEG SW also suffers from the excreble "movie/series characters are way above what your feeble PC will ever reach in a lifetime" syndrome.

This is simply not true. It's entirely possible in WEG SW to develop a character to the level of the movie protagonists.

 

[Odhanan]

More SW d20. A Ultimate Starships of the Galaxy sourcebook.
A full 1st to 20th level campaign. And a good one at that, please.

This is simply not true. It's entirely possible in WEG SW to develop a character to the level of the movie protagonists.

I can say I did. A Jedi character with Control 10 Dice, Sense 8 Dice and Alteration 11 Dice. I had enormous fun with that character, but seriously, he was almost unbeatable/immortal/invincible, to the point at which we decided to playtest him against Vader, out of campaign, just to "see" what it would be like. 3 hours later, none of the characters won.

There is a cap in WEG's system after which the heroes are just *too* powerful when compared to the frame the system has been built for. The Basic (Chaosium) system suffers from the same thing (even more so, since it is built around a definite % -human scale). A problem that does not exist with d20 System, simply because the system follows the characters' power curve so that there is always a challenge for them at 1st like 20th level.

Me, I prefer a system in which the PCs are only threatened by named NPCs, rather than suffering a genuine risk of death and injury every time they encounter a stormtrooper. In other words, I prefer a system that feels like the Star Wars movies, rather than like D&D with blasters.

Just allow critical hits for named characters, not for stormtroopers and thugs, then?

 

[The_Gneech]

Time for a little thread hijack!

I dunno, your perception of how the movies went and mine are pretty different. The way I remember it, almost every character-to-character battle in SW pretty much went like this:

STORMTROOPERS: "Ah keel ju!!!" *zwot zwot zwot*

HEROES: "Mommy!!!" *run away*

...or...

JEDI: "Ah keel ju!" *activates lightsaber*

VILLAIN: *beats Jedi to a pulp*

...except for fighting against Jabba's two-bit thugs, or the Trade Federation's two-bit droids.

In the case of the specific examples you cite...

BEN: *dies*

LUKE: "Ah keel ju!!!" *zwot zwot zwot*

HAN & LEIA: "What are you, stupid??? Blast the door and let's get out of here!"

...or...

HAN: *zwot!*

STORMTROOPERS: *get reinforcements*

HAN: "Mommy!!!" *runs away*

...and so on. And watch that fight in the detention block again: there's a surprise round in which Chewie cold-konks one guy, Han blasts another, and Luke takes out a third. Then there's the actual first round of combat, where the three heroes are behind the cover of the control panel blasting the few remaining troops and starting on the cameras. Finally, when the reinforcements show up, Han and Chewie beat it down the hall, dig in for cover (to use your words), and start trading shots back and forth with stormtroopers (who, for whatever reason known only to Imperial training officers, DON'T get behind cover).

My impression has always been that the heroes in SW tended to fight fairly smart, and would only jump out into a hail of blaster fire when they were desperate or overwhelmed with emotion. (Look at the "Oh gawd what am I gonna do now?" look at Han's face before he turns the Millenium Falcon to 'attack' the Star Destroyer.) A few times, they just flat out make mistakes (such as Han's totally blown "Move Silently" check when sneaking up on the biker scout).

And if you play like that, the RPG works pretty well.

-The Gneech

 

[Neo]

More SW d20. A Ultimate Starships of the Galaxy sourcebook.
A full 1st to 20th level campaign. And a good one at that, please.

Yes, yes.. and am Ultimate Arms and Equipment with far greater sections on everything (vehicles, droids, weapons, armour, miscellaneous gear, cybernetics etc...)

RoTS Sourcebook

A guide that is filled with non playable race type alien beasties.. and rules for making more

Probably not everyones cup of tea but I'd quite like a splatbook for each of the classes too providing different variants and multiclass builds likewere in the Hero guide, more prestige, feats etc..

Another book like the Gamesmasters Guide would be nice too as that was filled with useful info and ideas.