D&D 5E Minor Illusion...can it be cast over other objects?

Hmm, some good points raised in this thread.

I'm curious about the "not being able to move" bit though. I didn't realize that was the case. It would certainly rule out using it for coins, unless it was a chest sitting on the ground or something. Is that the generally accepted practice?
 

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Hmm, some good points raised in this thread.

I'm curious about the "not being able to move" bit though. I didn't realize that was the case. It would certainly rule out using it for coins, unless it was a chest sitting on the ground or something. Is that the generally accepted practice?

It's the text. We really have no way of determining how many players actually run it that way out of the entire DnD playing population.
 


Being able to to notice differences in coins requires familiarity with the coins. I'd argue that most creatures have little to no experience inspecting coinage for forgery, with the exception of officials, merchants and others who engage in tax collection or trade on a routine basis.

When you say creatures I guess you're referring to monsters - orcs, gobbos, etc. Which raises the question of why would monsters have 'civilised' currency unless they have a fiscal use for it? Which would grant them just as much familiarity as the next (playable) guy.

And if not, and it's just kept around for the ooh shiny - they'll be pawing over it a lot, gazing at it a lot - it's so pretty. So, again, they'll be familiar with these coins.

Either way, a proper look and definitely a touch would dispel the illusion.
 

When you say creatures I guess you're referring to monsters - orcs, gobbos, etc. Which raises the question of why would monsters have 'civilised' currency unless they have a fiscal use for it? Which would grant them just as much familiarity as the next (playable) guy.

And if not, and it's just kept around for the ooh shiny - they'll be pawing over it a lot, gazing at it a lot - it's so pretty. So, again, they'll be familiar with these coins.

Either way, a proper look and definitely a touch would dispel the illusion.

When I say 'creatures' I'm including the so called civilized races, like humans, dwarves, elves, halfings, gnomes and any others with large and powerful societies. No matter how much time someone spends with coins, unless they devote time not just to using them for entertainment but actually learning about the coins, the materials and so on, they have no idea whether or not the coins are real-they may in fact be so inexperienced that they can't recognize real coins from sufficiently foreign lands, due to a lack of standardized coin minting across all possible fantasy universes.


I also disagree that the illusion would be dispelled-that's a DM call, because the illusion doesn't state that in the text.
 

It's not the text. The text for minor illusion says nothing about moving or not. People are assuming that because the text for major image specifically calls out movement that any other illusions which don't specifically spell out a movement clause cannot move or animate.

My own personal reading is that the movement clause of major image is totally redundant: it's not present, for example, in creation. Are we to take it that objects produced with creation cannot move or animate? How about phantom steed?

I would submit that if the clause was not present in the major image line of spells, no one would rule that an illusion of a creature would be inanimate or unable to move about within the spell's range.

However: the rules pretty clearly state that if you take an action to examine the product of minor illusion, you get an intelligence check against the save DC of the spell. Outside of combat, I would expect that an examination would be automatic. I would suggest that an NPC you expect to be particularly familiar with money would get his proficiency bonus on the check too.

Identification of off coins should definitely not be automatic. Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denarius for some pictures of how much variation there was in official coinage. And THAT is if all your coin are from the same empire. If you're an adventurer, then there's all sorts of crap mixed in there.

In fact, that's most likely the reason this ruse will fail: while we as players use "gold pieces" to buy things, the characters are probably handing over a pile of assorted coins and the merchant then weighs them and bites them and performs other tests of purity, simply because neither the characters nor the merchant have any idea of their worth up until that point.
 

When I say 'creatures' I'm including the so called civilized races, like humans, dwarves, elves, halfings, gnomes and any others with large and powerful societies. No matter how much time someone spends with coins, unless they devote time not just to using them for entertainment but actually learning about the coins, the materials and so on...

No, I don't think that's very realistic. Most currencies have quite gross differences between the coins of different dominations. Different shapes, weights and sizes. Different denominations can be twice as big, or twice as heavy. By design it is easy to note whether or not coins are unusual.

So, nobody familiar with the currency (i.e. it is the currency that they themselves routinely use) should be fooled just by a change in image, if they are able to physically inspect the coin too. They might not be able to quite identify that it is an illusion, but a gold coin that is the wrong dimensions and weight will be obvious cause for thought. Especially if there is a large amount of coins in question. Receiving one weird gold coin in payment isn't a big risk, receiving a whole chest full of strange gold coins is a bit suspicious.

The only people who would be easily fooled would be those who were either too poor to have seen higher denominations, or people who mostly exist in a barter economy and so rarely deal with coins at all (i.e. probably only the rural poor).

...they have no idea whether or not the coins are real-they may in fact be so inexperienced that they can't recognize real coins from sufficiently foreign lands, due to a lack of standardized coin minting across all possible fantasy universes.

Absolutely. Foreign/ancient coins could be easier to mask with illusions. But foreign coins will also attract more rigorous inspection in the first place.
 

But the text doesn't actually say the illusion can't move, does it?

Right, but silent image (level 1) does mention movement is allowed (so does Phantasmal Force and Major Image), so it is implied that there is no movement in minor illusion (a cantrip). Also, the text only gives 3 examples (a chair, a small chest and a footprint), 5ft. cube max. This also implies that there is no movement.

Still, I think it is up to DM.
 
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Identification of off coins should definitely not be automatic. Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denarius for some pictures of how much variation there was in official coinage. And THAT is if all your coin are from the same empire.

But those pictures are also over centuries of usage. The collection of coins that an archaeologist deals with is quite different to the collection that an actual living Roman would use. A living Roman would only see one or two versions in circulation at a time.

If you were actually living in the reign of Marcus Aurelius (for example), you might see the coins of his immediate predecessor a bit, especially early on in his reign. But you wouldn't expect to see the coins of Nero (Emperor over 100 years earlier). And if you did receive coins purportedly from Nero's reign, or even ones that just didn't look like Marcus Aurelius' coins, it would be immediate cause for suspicion that someone was trying to fool you with debased currency of some form or another.
 

No, I don't think that's very realistic. Most currencies have quite gross differences between the coins of different dominations. Different shapes, weights and sizes. Different denominations can be twice as big, or twice as heavy. By design it is easy to note whether or not coins are unusual.

So, nobody familiar with the currency (i.e. it is the currency that they themselves routinely use) should be fooled just by a change in image, if they are able to physically inspect the coin too. They might not be able to quite identify that it is an illusion, but a gold coin that is the wrong dimensions and weight will be obvious cause for thought. Especially if there is a large amount of coins in question. Receiving one weird gold coin in payment isn't a big risk, receiving a whole chest full of strange gold coins is a bit suspicious.

No, minting is hard. Coinage would have massive variation in the pre-international banking era. Every coin would be weird, and knowledge of coins would be a specialty thing due to an ever changing set of demands on coin makers as different people came into power, and no way of recalling previously made coins.

Alteration to coins would also the norm, not the exception. Even today, the coins in my pocket are all, uh, personalized. Beat up. There is no 'normal' coinage, and it would take someone who actually knew the coins-who dealt with coins a great deal and needed to guarantee the identity of said coins-to really determine whether or not a coin is fake or real. This is still true today for anyone who hasn't moved on to electronic currency. Can you tell if a coin is real, or just way out of date?
 

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