Mirror Image vs. Cleave

[Storm Raven]

the reason why its an overly narrow interpretation is because your just using terms.

Oh, you mean I'm using the RAW? Using very basic ideas like "creatures" are what the rules say they are, and "figments" are what the rules say they are, and "Cleave" does what the rules say it does?

That would be why the rule "no Cleave against mirror images" is the RAW. I'm still not seeing how using the basic definitions of basic terms is "overly narrow".

 

[KarinsDad]

Er, yeah. That's what you're supposed to do.

When the rules say "creature," they mean "creature."

They don't mean "creature or object or wishes or hopes and dreams."

In this case, they do for Shard.

 

[Sejs]

Er, yeah. That's what you're supposed to do.

When the rules say "creature," they mean "creature."

They don't mean "creature or object or wishes or hopes and dreams."

Well thank god. At least my hopes and dreams are safe from marauding cleave-using maniacs.

 

[Coredump]

Cleave allows you to attack once you drop a creature, to say since mirror image isn't technically a creature so it doesn't apply is silly beyond measure.

"Mirror image isn't *technically* a creature......"

Well, *lots* of things are not 'technically' a creature can we cleave all of those now too?
A painting of a creature looks like a creature, but 'technically' it isn't, so can we cleave off hitting a painting"

An arrow isn't 'technically' a creature, can I cleave after 'dropping' an arrow?

Where does it stop?

How about casting Hallucinitory terrain? If I hit a tree, and it 'drops', can I now cleave?

How about persistant image? I can cast it, and program it so it runs in a circle around the barbarian and drops when hit, and then reapears in 3 seconds. Now the barbarian can take an AoO each round at the 'figment' (which, apparently, may have Cha and Wis, and, apparently, while not 'technically' a creature, may be treated like one.), and then cleave off of that AoO and hit the baddie. Pretty cool.

How about Major image, it dissapears when struck. So can I cleave off of that? What if it was an image of a chair?

And what about the reverse, if the mirror image is a creature, or at least can be targetted by things that target creatures. (as cleave does) What else can target the mirror image. Can I enlarge the image? Can I polymorph the image? How about detect evil?
Perfect, I can cast fear, now ALL of the images must make wil saves or run away.

So, how does this work exactly... are all images to be treated like creatures?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well thank god. At least my hopes and dreams are safe from marauding cleave-using maniacs.

No, I'm sorry, Sejs. Your hopes and dreams were busy running around when Shard was DMing. I'm afraid they didn't make it.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Likewise, it has NOT been established that Magic Missles lack a Wisdom score. Neither an affirmative nor a negative occurs in the spell description.
So, by applying *YOUR* logic, it is part of RAW that Magic Missles can be considered 'creatures'. So next time our wizard shoots them past me and at the bad guy, I am going to cleave them.

Likewise, it has NOT been established that sticks lack a Wisdom score. Neither an affirmative nor a negative occurs in any book.
So, by applying *YOUR* logic, it is part of RAW that sticks can be considered 'creatures'. So next time I am fighting a bad guy, I will throw them in the air, creatures provoke AoO, so I will AoO them, and then cleave the bad guy.

Likewise, it has NOT been established that arrows lack a Wisdom score. Neither an affirmative nor a negative occurs in any book.
So, by applying *YOUR* logic, it is part of RAW that arrows can be considered 'creatures'. So next time our archer shoots them part me and at the bad guy, I am going to cleave the arrows and hit the bad guy.

That is fully correct. And any attempts to say otherwise must perforce be....

...a House Rule

Mirror Image is of type Figment Illusion. These are not real (and the quotes for this have been posted earlier). Not real, no Wisdom score UNLESS it states somewhere that either Mirror Image or figments have a Wisdom score somewhere (or is a creature) which it does not.

And that is what you are so fond of accusing others of...a non sequitur (at least I THINK it's you. If I'm confusing you with someone else in this matter...my apologies).

The assumption that unreal = no wisdom score is wholly without support in the RAW. The simple fact is that all you who say otherwise have simply decided so because it doesn't fit your sense of metaphysical reality. The rules, however, don't HAVE to fit your sense of metaphysical reality. (And the state of being unreal within that metaphysical reality should clue one into to something being different anyway).

Contend this? Check out that thread regarding Horrid Wilting and Fire Elementals. By making the assumption that something unreal cannot have a wisdom score you are doing the EXACT same thing as ruling that Fire Elementals don't have any moisture in them.

(And if you've got no problem with doing that, hey, more power to you. But stop claiming it's part of the RAW)

this means that a Figment cannot make you look like a Troll. Glamers are used for that. So, you cannot use Major Image to look like a Troll. You cannot hide within a Major Image and look like a Table in it. You can create the image of a Troll or a Table with Major Image, but you cannot change your own appearance or anyone else's appearance with Major Image since Major Image is a figment, not a glamer.

Ah, but if your interpretation IS correct regarding whether figments are objects then we have the case that the images ARE objects. So far so good. But the spell specifically makes anyone who attacks the caster confuse these objects with the caster. Which it cannot do by the RAW because figments cannot used to make something look like something else.

It is quoted directly from the DMG and no matter which decision you make, you are still following RAW.

In which you've made a judgement call based on what -you- personally consider reasonable. A decision that may be the exact opposite of what other people play with...all fully following the RAW. That is, by definition, a House Rule.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Which it cannot do by the RAW because figments cannot used to make something look like something else.

The figment isn't making something look like something else.

The figment looks like something else.

-Hyp.

 

[Shadowdweller]

The figment isn't making something look like something else.

The figment looks like something else.

-Hyp.

That's not actually the part I'm talking about. Let's assume for a moment that figments are not creatures. The spell goes off, we have five objects and one creature. Objects and creatures are treated differently by the game mechanics.

How is it that one is unable to tell which are creatures and which are objects? Yes, they look and act EXACTLY the same. Yet they have some 'objectness' about them. If an object is made to be mistaken for a creature than some aspect of it's basic nature has been disguised as something else. How is it these objects are able to make one think that they're really creatures?

In contrast if an figment replicating a creature is treated as a creature for game mechanic purposes and a figment replicating an object is treated as an object then....

We're not left with a variety of cheesy means to bypass deception via the Image spells.

 

[KarinsDad]

In which you've made a judgement call based on what -you- personally consider reasonable. A decision that may be the exact opposite of what other people play with...all fully following the RAW. That is, by definition, a House Rule.

A house rule is something not in RAW.

If it is in RAW, then it is not a house rule.

You are confusing different adjudications, both of which are valid within RAW, as house rules.

 

[KarinsDad]

That's not actually the part I'm talking about. Let's assume for a moment that figments are not creatures. The spell goes off, we have five objects and one creature. Objects and creatures are treated differently by the game mechanics.

How is it that one is unable to tell which are creatures and which are objects? Yes, they look and act EXACTLY the same. Yet they have some 'objectness' about them. If an object is made to be mistaken for a creature than some aspect of it's basic nature has been disguised as something else. How is it these objects are able to make one think that they're really creatures?

The objects do not make one think that they are really creatures. The magic does that.

Although creatures and objects are treated differently for game mechanics purposes, that does not mean that PCs within the game can perceive the game mechanics differences between creatures and objects, or even realize that they exist. The players understand the differences in the game mechanics, but the PCs do not.