Mirror Image vs. Cleave

[KarinsDad]

some interesting questions pop up:

What's the Wis/Cha of a fireball? If it doesn't have one, then what's it's hardness? After all, if it doesn't have a wisdom or a charisma score, it's an object. If it's an object, it has a hardness. Likewise for Bear's Strength, Owl's Wisdom, and the like.... also for the air ... hmm...

Of course, if you make a third category that spell effects can potentially fill (neither object nor creature), then you can deal with such oddities.... but that would be a house rule, technically.

Is it a house rule?

Are spell effects defined in the game? Yes.

Are they listed as objects? Not usually.

Are they listed as creatures? Not usually.

There are a lot of effects in the game that are not creatures and are not objects. They have no Wisdom. They have no hardness or hit points.

That one sentence is in error with respect to everything in the game. It is referring to the subset of creatures/objects (i.e. physical things in the game) and not magical effects.

 

[Hypersmurf]

By dragging in the non-abilities bit from the MM ya'all are trying to prove figments can't be "creatures" because they have no wis or cha scores, leaving common sense in the dust. Figments are illusions, without existence or substance outside the minds of their perceivers, making cleaving through the image so much simpler (one would think).

So can I Cleave from a non-Mirror-Image figment - say, a Major Image that I perceive to be an orc - if it drops when I hit it?

-Hyp.

 

[Jack Simth]

Is it a house rule?

Are spell effects defined in the game? Yes.

Are they listed as objects? Not usually.

Are they listed as creatures? Not usually.

There are a lot of effects in the game that are not creatures and are not objects. They have no Wisdom. They have no hardness or hit points.

That one sentence is in error with respect to everything in the game. It is referring to the subset of creatures/objects (i.e. physical things in the game) and not magical effects.

That's kinda the point; I'm intentionally being silly to show the rediculousness of the position that there must be only two types, and the oddity of setting it to - when it seems rediculous for it to be present... and then the consequence: Well, it must have a hardness... what is it? Even though it's rediculous for a Fireball spell to have a hardness. But if it did, wouldn't it be grand for the barbarian with Improved Sunder and Power Attack while raging to Sunder the Fireball with a readied action?

To continue being rediculous, however.....

Well, we have a rule as written that says anything without a wisdom and charisma score is an object. We have another rule that states each object has a hardness. Does a mirror image figment have a Wisdom/Charisma score? If it does, then what scores? If not, by the rule listed, it's an object. If it's an object, it must have a hardness. But then what's the hardness value of a figment?

Mind you, I haven't seen anything that states clearly that something with a wisdom and charisma score must be a creature.... merely that anything without a wisdom and charisma score is an object.....

But then what's the Wisdom of a Magic Missle? If -, what's it's hardness?

 

[Storm Raven]

Well, we have a rule as written that says anything without a wisdom and charisma score is an object. We have another rule that states each object has a hardness. Does a mirror image figment have a Wisdom/Charisma score? If it does, then what scores? If not, by the rule listed, it's an object. If it's an object, it must have a hardness. But then what's the hardness value of a figment?

Zero?

 

[Jack Simth]

Zero?

But if you go that route, why not call a figment an odd sort of creature with a Wisdom and Charisma score of 0, rather than -, and thus eligible for creaturehood?

Edit: Then again, you quoted quite a few question marks with a single answer.... to which does it apply?

 

[Dryfus]

Yes. You missed the part where Mirror Image states that you MUST select from images as well as the caster when doing targeting the caster. You do not get a choice. Hence, if you (randomly) select incorrectly, the Cleave does not get to happen since your selected target is not a creature.

But wouldn't you still be swinging at the "intended target) ie: the wizard(or in this case, one of his images).

Several illusory duplicates of you pop into being, making it difficult for enemies to know which target to attack. The figments stay near you and disappear when struck.

The description of the spell says that they disapear "when struck" thus if you are a fighter and use cleave to attack the wizard that has mirror image up(after a sucsessfull attack against the wizards ally), then you just made an image disappear, because you are trying to attack a "creature"(the wizard), not one of his images.

 

[Storm Raven]

But if you go that route, why not call a figment an odd sort of creature with a Wisdom and Charisma score of 0, rather than -, and thus eligible for creaturehood?

Because, looking at the core rules, we see several objects with a hardness of zero (paper, rope, and ice, for example), but no creatures with a Wisdom or Charisma of zero.

 

[KarinsDad]

But wouldn't you still be swinging at the "intended target) ie: the wizard(or in this case, one of his images).

You could try.

But, Cleave is only good against Creatures.

A normal melee attack is good against any Opponent (Creatures or Objects or Effects).

That's the distinction.

 

[Sigg]

So can I Cleave from a non-Mirror-Image figment - say, a Major Image that I perceive to be an orc - if it drops when I hit it?

-Hyp.

There's no listed prohibition against it. There's no rational non-rule reason I can think of to disallow it. The weapon would pass through the space the image occupied and strike a target on the other side of it. Why would that be a problem?

 

[Infiniti2000]

So the sentence means that anything that isn't a creature is an object (as long as it's an object or a creature)?

Well, of course! Everything is an object or a creature, unless it's not.