D&D 5E Misty Stepping on my Dragon (critique my ruling)

[Superking]

We are playing through Rise of Tiamat. Players at level 10. The paladin in the group is an optimized PC. The party has fought Arauthator and Chuth. The battles were tough and the party succeeded both times, mainly due to the paladin.

In both encounters he was able to move, misty step to be positioned on the dragon and devestaingly attack from that position unloading smites and using everything he's got.

After his round, I made use of the dragon's legendary action of wing attacks that have a high DEX save (DC 19), that the paladin failed to make. It reads that the creature would fall prone in that case ( along with damage).

Here is where I may have been too generous... Instead of having him fall to the ground, I offered another save to hold on. On the fly, I decided to make the save a DC 17 and agreed that athletics for dex could be used. He made it and the next round continued to pummel my dragon, again unloading with everything.

It was epic fight and cinematic, with the paladin making short work of what I thought would be a longer fight in both occasions.

My questions:

1.) Should I allow Misty Step onto dragon or other flying creature? It's one thing to fly as a rider with a saddle, it's another to attempt to stand and fight on a dragons back.

2.) Would you require extra saving throws to balance in that precarious position each round? I think yes, is a DC 17 about right for a dex save? I am considering that if this comes up again, that to this would require a Dex save each round, a fail would mean that attacks are at disadvantage for that round.

3.) Finally, if the dragon uses its Wing Attack (legenday action) and suceeds, the player fails the save and falls prone, is giving him a second chance to hang on too generous? In hindsight I am thinking yes. If it happens again, I would say he either falls or is given a chance to hang on and the next round his attacks are at disadvantage.


Looking forward to hearing some recommendations.

 

[Sunseeker]

My questions:

1.) Should I allow Misty Step onto dragon or other flying creature? It's one thing to fly as a rider with a saddle, it's another to attempt to stand and fight on a dragons back.

I would argue the space is "occupied" and "moving", if he wanted to misty-step say, 5 or 10 feet above the dragon I'd allow that, along with a check to "catch" on the dragon when he landed, if he landed on it. But "occupied" generally means that the space is mostly taken by another thing that is often moving and shifting around. Likewise, if your paladin was standing on the ground, I'm not sure how he could see the dragon's back since from his perspective the up of the dragon's back would be out of his line of sight.

2.) Would you require extra saving throws to balance in that precarious position each round? I think yes, is a DC 17 about right for a dex save? I am considering that if this comes up again, that to this would require a Dex save each round, a fail would mean that attacks are at disadvantage for that round.

Giving him a STR save in a skill he was proficient in instead of a raw DEX save or a skill he was not was 100% a boon to the paladin. I wouldn't have replaced one with the other, but required him to make one every turn. Further if he is "holding on" that means he's using his hands, in which case he couldn't swing a sword, and balancing on your feet while standing on a moving creature is most certainly a Dexterity, possibly Acrobatics check, not Athletics.

3.) Finally, if the dragon uses its Wing Attack (legenday action) and suceeds, the player fails the save and falls prone, is giving him a second chance to hang on too generous? In hindsight I am thinking yes. If it happens again, I would say he either falls or is given a chance to hang on and the next round his attacks are at disadvantage.

No, but he'd be hanging on, while prone, so the next round he'd have to make a check to stand and remain standing, IMO, since still: you're on a big, angry moving object. And I would give him disadvantage if one hand was holding a sword, no check allowed if both hands were holding other objects, unless he freely dropped them, but then there's no guarantee he'd get them back.

 

[Rhogar_Rarr]

I think you made the right calls initially. Honestly, a paladin (or barbarian) can feel pretty sub-par or even useless in ranged combat. And a flying creature pretty much guarantees ranged combat. Instead, you let him feel awesome and I bet he haa a much better time than he would have otherwise in that encounter. It's all about the fun right?

 

[Valador]

I'm on the road otherwise I'd chime in more, but in short, as long as everyone had fun I think you made the right call. It looked and sounded cool. You can always look into it more controlled in the future and go from there if you feel it necessary.

 

[I'm A Banana]

1) I would, but you'd be justified in not allowing it. "Moving around too much" or somesuch. I tend to go with Rule of Awesome, so I would generally allow it for Large or larger creatures.

2) A saving throw makes sense. Even more, I'd suck up actions: if you choose to make a save, maybe it eats up your action from your next turn, so that you have to choose between holding on and wailing on the beast. The beast itself might have to take an action to make you make a save (a "shake 'em loose" action).

3) It's not necessarily "too generous", but I'm personally a fan of the big-risk-big-reward choice of "if you fall prone while on the thing, you will fall off it entirely."

Unless the critter is a hundred feet tall or something, the falling damage won't be too bad at mid levels, even when it happens.

 

[Ovinomancer]

There's an optional rule for climbing on creatures much bigger than you in the back of the DMG. Essentially, it's a STR(athletics) or DEX(acrobatics) against the target's DEX(acrobatics) as an action. If successful, you're riding the bigger thing. You can move around it's space as difficult terrain, and it can take an action to dislodge you with a contested STR vs STR/DEX and appropriate skills. While riding, you have advantage against the larger creature and move with it when it moves.

So, I'd allow the Misty Step to get into position, but the require the action to actually remain firmly on the dragon. After that, it's unload time. If the character fails a DEX save, though, I would treat that as if they were mounted -- they fall off.

 

[iserith]

1.) Should I allow Misty Step onto dragon or other flying creature? It's one thing to fly as a rider with a saddle, it's another to attempt to stand and fight on a dragons back.

The intention seems to be that the caster cannot teleport into an occupied space. However, given the size of the creature, there are plenty of unoccupied spaces around it. Therefore, I'd say it's fine as long as the person manages to hold on to the creature they're now riding with a free hand or some other means. This potentially means not using a two-handed weapon or a shield.

2.) Would you require extra saving throws to balance in that precarious position each round? I think yes, is a DC 17 about right for a dex save? I am considering that if this comes up again, that to this would require a Dex save each round, a fail would mean that attacks are at disadvantage for that round.

If the character has a free hand on the creature, I wouldn't say so. If the players want to have the character ride the monster like a surfboard, however, perhaps because they want to use a two-handed weapon for more damage, then the player must consider the trade-off: On the dragon's turn, it can wing over during its movement, forcing a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw to avoid falling. The DC, of course, can be higher or lower, depending on the circumstances, or the character could have advantage or disadvantage.

3.) Finally, if the dragon uses its Wing Attack (legenday action) and suceeds, the player fails the save and falls prone, is giving him a second chance to hang on too generous? In hindsight I am thinking yes. If it happens again, I would say he either falls or is given a chance to hang on and the next round his attacks are at disadvantage.

I wouldn't have called for the saving throw to hang on in that particular case. If you're going to change the way you rule on a substantially similar situation in the future, it's a good idea to let the players know. Consistency as to the DM's rulings are an important part of players making informed decisions.

In any case, it sounds like you had fun and created an exciting, memorable story, so I wouldn't go looking for problems where there apparently are none.

 

[Shiroiken]

1.) Should I allow Misty Step onto dragon or other flying creature? It's one thing to fly as a rider with a saddle, it's another to attempt to stand and fight on a dragons back.

It depends on how you play. If you're more interested in rules, then I think probably not. If you're more interested in story, I'd say absolutely. A good option would be to have an Intelligence/Arcana check to see if you land on the dragon, or if you miss (remember, everything is simultanious, so that dragon is moving!) and fall to the grou

2.) Would you require extra saving throws to balance in that precarious position each round? I think yes, is a DC 17 about right for a dex save? I am considering that if this comes up again, that to this would require a Dex save each round, a fail would mean that attacks are at disadvantage for that round.

I would require a Dexterity/Acrobatics check either at the start or end of each of his turns to stay on. I don't feel that saves would be appropriate, myself, since they are supposed to be reactive things.

3.) Finally, if the dragon uses its Wing Attack (legenday action) and suceeds, the player fails the save and falls prone, is giving him a second chance to hang on too generous? In hindsight I am thinking yes. If it happens again, I would say he either falls or is given a chance to hang on and the next round his attacks are at disadvantage.

Too generous, I think. The purpose of the wing attack is pretty clear, so a second save is too much.

 

[Dragoslav]

There's an optional rule for climbing on creatures much bigger than you in the back of the DMG. Essentially, it's a STR(athletics) or DEX(acrobatics) against the target's DEX(acrobatics) as an action. If successful, you're riding the bigger thing. You can move around it's space as difficult terrain, and it can take an action to dislodge you with a contested STR vs STR/DEX and appropriate skills. While riding, you have advantage against the larger creature and move with it when it moves.

So, I'd allow the Misty Step to get into position, but the require the action to actually remain firmly on the dragon. After that, it's unload time. If the character fails a DEX save, though, I would treat that as if they were mounted -- they fall off.

To expand on this, the optional rule "Climb onto a bigger creature" on DMG page 271 says, "After making any ability checks necessary to get into position and onto the larger creature, the smaller creature uses its action to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. If it wins the contest, the smaller creature successfully moves into the target creature's space and clings to its body."

So the order is:
1) Make a skill check to position yourself in such a way that you can get onto the creature's body (optional)
2) Succeed on a skill contest in order to stay on once you're there.

In most cases, I would say that both steps 1 and 2 would be necessary to climb onto a dragon's back, whether it by by actually climbing up it (Athletics), jumping onto it from a higher position (Acrobatics), or whatever else the player can contrive. In this case, the paladin's player wanted to complete that requirement by spending one of his limited resources, a spell slot, that lets him teleport; this is a creative use of limited resources and should be rewarded with an automatic success for step 1.

After the character is positioned onto the creature, though, he still needs to pass part 2 of the process: he has landed on the dragon and needs to either cling onto it or balance himself as the creature reacts to his presence. As such, he needs to beat the dragon in the skill contest, as normal.

The optional rule is pretty simple, like all of 5e's mechanics. The initial successful skill contest represents the character fighting to stay alight on the enemy, so he can move freely (albeit at half speed, which is exactly the same as the standard rules for climbing and swimming) on the creature until the creature uses its action to attempt to overtly knock the character off of it.

Yes, Misty Step's spell text says that you can't teleport into an occupied space, but that is the "general" rule, and the optional rule for climbing onto bigger creatures (the "specific" rule) supercedes it in this case. Besides, that argument is premised on thinking of the action in terms of squares and minis--thinking of it narratively, the paladin wasn't trying to teleport into the dragon, he was trying to teleport into the empty space above the dragon's back.

Since the rule says nothing about whether falling prone knocks you off of the creature, you're free to rule as you see fit regardless of whether you are following the rule to the letter. Personally, I would allow a save to stay on the dragon (still prone, of course), a la the 4e rules for being moved into hazardous terrain. Definitely if the dragon were in flight, and the PC could die from falling damage (some might say that's too generous, but I think it's cinematically dramatic, if done in conjunction with what I'm about to suggest next). However, since the character could just stay prone on the dragon his next round and attack, I would rule that he needs to succeed on another skill contest as per step 2 of the above process, and that he must use his Action to do so. If he gets knocked prone again during this round, he would have to repeat the process, which, while meaning that the PC is repeatedly "wasting" an action to stay aloft, also means that the dragon is wasting Actions or Legendary Actions to dislodge the PC, taking some of the danger away from the PC's allies--a very narratively cool situation. If the PC is knocked prone again while already prone on the dragon, or if the dragon succeeds in dislodging the PC while the PC is prone, then the PC falls off, falling damage be damned.

Ultimately, I'll echo the sentiment that, as long as the players had fun and at least one player felt like he got to use his PC's abilities to momentarily take the spotlight and do something awesome, your ruling was fine. DMs, speaking from experience, often get caught up in self-doubt over rulings, but players are most assuredly not sitting there thinking, "Hmm, what a sub-par ruling for this circumstance. Doesn't this guy know anything about game design?" They're too busy worrying about whether there will be enough left of their PC for the party to cast Raise Dead if their PC gets thrown off of the dragon.

 

[Zinnger]

I am not clear how many rounds of combat this all required but I think it is fine for the misty step (bonus action) to teleport to the empty space over the dragon and then (again as per P. 271 DMG) to make an Athletics or Acrobatic check to grab hold but this is their action for the round. Misty step bonus and Athletic action. No attacks remain. The extra attack only occurs when you take the attack action which was not used in this round. If it remains attached to the dragon on the following round the paladin can attack with advantage and go to town!

The dragon can then use its action to try to dislodge the paladin or use its wing attack to knock prone. I would probably rule that if the dragon hit with wing and paladin is knocked prone it could make an athletic or acrobatic check to remain prone on the dragon but I think that because of the small size (compared to normal terrain on the ground) of the dragons back this check would be at disadvantage. Succeed and remain on the dragon so that you can stand for half movement and attack with advantage on the paladin's next turn. Fail means that you fall prone on the ground below the dragon suffering falling damage as normal for a fall.

Sounds like a fun encounter but I think to be totally fun the creature should be able to put up a good fight. There are times when luck or unluck ends a fight early but it should be dice or very clever actions to do so. Nothing worse than an epic fight ending in 1 or 2 rounds. Sort of anticlimactic.