D&D 5E MM Firesnake up on Christopher Burdett's Blog

[KarinsDad]

But by its inclusion (as a juvenile salamander), it brings in the Unfortunate Implication. It reinforces the unpleasant stereotype of D&D as a game where everything is a foe to be slain, and the players as relentless "murderhoboes".

Does it?

As you yourself pointed out, nobody would have cared if they would have left Firesnakes out of the MM.

I opine that nobody outside of our gaming community would have had this stereotype reinforced because they too are nearly all unaware of the existence of Firesnakes in 5E.

In other words, if people such as yourself had not brought up the issue, even people inside of our gaming community would not have been aware of it, let alone people outside our community who might stereotype us.


Now if there were hundreds of such creatures in the MM, then you might have a point. People both in and out of the community might eventually notice.

But for a small handful of monsters? Is that really worth anyone getting their panties into a bind over, and further, isn't getting ones panties in a bind over that exacerbating the very stereotype that you are talking about by propagating the perceived issue?

It's not WotC who is bringing up this issue, it's people such as yourself. You are reinforcing the sterotyping that you claim that WotC is reinforcing. If you would not have brought the issue up in this thread, there are probably a lot of gamers who would have never had it enter their radar.

 

[Savage Wombat]

I don't think so highly of myself to imagine I'm the only person who noticed this.

And I don't think that hoping no one notices a potential problem is a useful strategy for addressing a potential problem. I also don't think that blaming the whistle-blower for pointing out the problem is a useful strategy.

You seem to rely on the argument of "I don't see it as a problem, so it's not one" a little too strongly.

You also seem to think that using phrases like "panties in a bind" helps your argument.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

I don't think so highly of myself to imagine I'm the only person who noticed this.

And I don't think that hoping no one notices a potential problem is a useful strategy for addressing a potential problem. I also don't think that blaming the whistle-blower for pointing out the problem is a useful strategy.

You seem to rely on the argument of "I don't see it as a problem, so it's not one" a little too strongly.

You also seem to think that using phrases like "panties in a bind" helps your argument.

yea, so I guess if I point out that your car is leaking gas it's totally my fault... since if I didn't point it out you wouldn't know....

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

I posted these back on page 2, but since they have been ignored...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16152989&postcount=13



and http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16153403&postcount=28


and http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16153660&postcount=37

 

[ThirdWizard]

well off hand I'll go with I have no connection to the monster, and don't see it as a real thing at all... infact I have nothing to feel about the movie.

In D&D I invest ALOT more time and energy into it

I think what this shows is that there's a sliding scale of what babies matter to different people. So, you're fine with killing baby aliens. If that's true, then you just draw the line at a different place than others, and you can't say that killing babies is bad in any kind of absolute way. After all, you've given an example of killing babies that doesn't bother you. If someone is fine with killing baby dragons or baby salamanders, then they just draw the line in a different place. And, that's fine, too, right? You draw the line here. They draw the line there.

 

[KarinsDad]

And I don't think that hoping no one notices a potential problem is a useful strategy for addressing a potential problem. I also don't think that blaming the whistle-blower for pointing out the problem is a useful strategy.

One man's whistle blower is another man's rabble-rouser.

In our "blow everything out of proportion" media driven by journalists who cannot find good stories, so they take any lousy breadcrumb they find, is blaming the authors for your perceived issue really the best strategy?

Seriously, we are talking about an issue here where it is not the decision making abilities of the authors, rather it is their morals that are being questioned. What if this minor little personal annoyance of yours becomes a big dot deal because of some moronic blogger and someone loses their job over it? It's happened before with media BS and it'll happen again. It wouldn't be the first negative D&D issue blown way out of proportion.

I seriously suspect that this will not happen because we are talking about a nit, but it'll suck if it does happen. In fact, I think I'll get out of this thread now since I want it to die a quick death.

yea, so I guess if I point out that your car is leaking gas it's totally my fault... since if I didn't point it out you wouldn't know....

Do you really put this on the same level of importance as gas leaking out of someone's car?

Really?

I put it on the same level of importance as Fred Weasley dying in Harry Potter because in both cases, it's fiction.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

I think what this shows is that there's a sliding scale of what babies matter to different people. So, you're fine with killing baby aliens. If that's true, then you just draw the line at a different place than others, and you can't say that killing babies is bad in any kind of absolute way. After all, you've given an example of killing babies that doesn't bother you. If someone is fine with killing baby dragons or baby salamanders, then they just draw the line in a different place. And, that's fine, too, right? You draw the line here. They draw the line there.

no slideing scale at all... I just don't care about Aliens. I also don't care about other things I don't like. Use a different example please...

One man's whistle blower is another man's rabble-rouser.

think that through please... who do whistle blowers cause problems for...

In our "blow everything out of proportion" media driven by journalists who cannot find good stories, so they take any lousy breadcrumb they find, is blaming the authors for your perceived issue really the best strategy?

wait... so you think if people agree with me, they are wrong... it's the funny argument of "More people agree with me because people that don't agree with me don't count"

Seriously, we are talking about an issue here where it is not the decision making abilities of the authors, rather it is their morals that are being questioned. What if this minor little personal annoyance of yours becomes a big dot deal because of some moronic blogger and someone loses their job over it? It's happened before with media BS and it'll happen again. It wouldn't be the first negative D&D issue blown way out of proportion.

wait... so if someone sees this and agrees with me they must be a "moronic blogger" not someone who just agrees with me?

I seriously suspect that this will not happen because we are talking about a nit, but it'll suck if it does happen. In fact, I think I'll get out of this thread now since I want it to die a quick death.

good get out then, don't try to talk through and understand each others point of view instead you should insult us and walk out...

I put it on the same level of importance as Fred Weasley dying in Harry Potter because in both cases, it's fiction.

except no one was controlling a character to kill fred...

 

[SkidAce]

I did check Fiend Folio. The fire snake entry says "fire snakes are conjectured to be the larval form of salamanders."

I suspect the conversation is beyond that by now however.

 

[KarinsDad]

Ok, you suckered me back in.

think that through please... who do whistle blowers cause problems for...

I do not equate this with a whistle blower. It really is not important enough for that. I did not bring that term into the conversation, I brought the term rabble-rouser in because that's closer to how I view it.

wait... so you think if people agree with me, they are wrong... it's the funny argument of "More people agree with me because people that don't agree with me don't count"

Funny, that's your spin on what I said. I was talking about real world journalists blowing this topic up so much out of proportion that someone loses their job.

Personally, someone losing their job is more important to me, and it should be to you, than your personal sensibilities being offended by fictional infant monsters. Are your offended sensibilities more important than someone else's job?

wait... so if someone sees this and agrees with me they must be a "moronic blogger" not someone who just agrees with me?

No. If someone posts something on a blog and someone else loses their job over it for no real good reason (which I think that you and I can both agree, this is not important enough for someone to lose their job over), than that person was a moronic blogger.

Our social media is way out of control and it's only getting worse. People do lose their jobs over the most trivial of facebook/twitter/blog reasons.

Would you like it if you lost your job because of something trivial that you wrote? This is a small number of monsters where the vast majority of gamers and virtually no non-gamers would have ever noticed this. And of those gamers that do notice it, very few consider it important.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. And no, I do not think (or at least I hope) that this will not blow up into something bigger. But when one starts questioning the moral fiber of people these days in our media, crap happens. That might not be your intent, but the two of you are approaching this as a "should publishers be publishing this type of thing?" as if it is morally wrong and not just subpar monster design. Sorry, it's not morally wrong to many people. Morality is subjective. This is fiction. It's hard to really say that fiction is morally wrong because by definition, it's not real world.

good get out then, don't try to talk through and understand each others point of view instead you should insult us and walk out...

You considered it an insult that I disagreed with you and thought that the thread should just die a quick death?

except no one was controlling a character to kill fred...

The author controls that character, just like the co-authors (i.e. D&D players) control their PCs.

Nothing forces you to have your heroic PC go fight a Firesnake.

 

[Savage Wombat]

I'm getting the feeling that the principle you are defending has nothing to do with the original point. Since this is not a place for political discussions, ...