MM II Identity Parade

[Rechan]

Hey all!



I don't have MM2 yet to make a thorough enough analysis but I suspect that minion damage has went from being equal to the Minimum of the Low Column on the Normal Damage Expression Table to being equal to the Average of the Low Column Normal Damage Expression Table (round fractions up).

So that might change things as follows:

Minion Level, Old Damage, New Damage
1-3, 4, 7

Kenku Ruffian, level 3 minion skirmisher, damage 5.
Bullywug Croaker, level 3 minion brute, damage 7.
Rupture Demon level 3 minion soldier, damage 5
Infernal Animus Armor level 3 minion soldier, damage 5

13-15, 7, 12
16-18, 8, 13

Aboleth Skum, level 18 minion brute, damage 16
Several minion skirmishers and one controller, level 15-17: 12 damage.

 

[LightPhoenix]

Altruism and selfishness are not genetic or hard-wired as much as they are learned, social behaviors.

Kamikaze Midget brings up an interesting point, perhaps without realizing it.

There is a difference between altruistic behavior and symbiotic behavior.

The running example of dogs and humans is an example of symbiosis. More specifically, the current theory is that wolves developed a commensal symbiosis with humans and evolution resulted in modern dogs. That relationship may be considered mutualistic today. I personally would consider it in between mutualistic and commensal. In any case, the act of a dog defending its owner is at worst considered self-serving (protecting your niche) and at best an example of true mutualism (dogs and humans help each other). None of that suggests altruism. There are some who believe in reciprocity as a form of altruism - I would disagree on that fact.

However (and my apologies KM), altruistic behavior is not unheard of in biology. Any microbiologist should be able to tell you about the concept of persistence - that some bacteria, in safe (non-challenging) conditions, will assume a dormant state to protect the whole of the colony in the event of a challengge (particularly in a biofilm). There's no individual biological advantage to a bacterial cell doing this. Yet it's very common.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Rechan!

Kenku Ruffian, level 3 minion skirmisher, damage 5.
Bullywug Croaker, level 3 minion brute, damage 7.
Rupture Demon level 3 minion soldier, damage 5
Infernal Animus Armor level 3 minion soldier, damage 5

Aboleth Skum, level 18 minion brute, damage 16
Several minion skirmishers and one controller, level 15-17: 12 damage.

Thanks very much for posting a few damages. What we can see is that Minion Role now plays a part in assigning damage, although its possible some ability scores may be affecting numbers.

Ah well, I'll have the book in a few days time and then I can work it all out.

 

[Derren]

Sorry to bring the metallic alignment up again, but Dragoncat just posted this on the WotC board and I think that this is a very good in game explanation for this.
And while I still don't agree with WotC design for 4E even I can accept this explanation so I think most others who are not impressed by unaligned metalics can too

Maybe the entire point is that metallic dragons can choose to be good.


Let's face it. Chromatic dragons? They're jerks. From the shell, they are little bastards, full of spite and vanity and destruction.

But Metallics? They're free.

They have no biological compulsion to a certain alignment. When they hatch, they have all the choices in the world ahead of them, and they decide their lives as they see fit. Some don't devote themselves to the dichotomy of good and evil. Some even fall into the realm of insidious ways, twisting away from their progenitor.

But some choose to become higher beings, to follow the ways of Bahamut not because of their birth, not because they must be that way, but because they choose to be a force of goodness in the world. Thus, they become good, and teach their children in kind. All the followers of the Platinum Dragon God are made, not born, free thinking beings who commit themselves to the path of honor, glory, and righteousness.

 

[Dice4Hire]

That is quite good.

 

[I'm A Banana]

However (and my apologies KM), altruistic behavior is not unheard of in biology. Any microbiologist should be able to tell you about the concept of persistence - that some bacteria, in safe (non-challenging) conditions, will assume a dormant state to protect the whole of the colony in the event of a challengge (particularly in a biofilm). There's no individual biological advantage to a bacterial cell doing this. Yet it's very common.

This is an interesting tangent, but weird from the context of D&D and the MMII conversation, which doesn't have much at all to do with altruism being instinctive or not, but more has to do with why the designers avoid the Good alignment in monsters as if it were plutonium. One assumes this is because they are under the wrongheaded belief that Good monsters aren't useful.

The whole "Gold Dragons have evolved!" is a peculiar sort of excuse that seems to miss the more salient points entirely: the designers believe that "Good" is not a fun alignment in play for anything opposing the PC's goals. I would -- very much -- like to disabuse them of this notion. I'm not sure we need the galaxy of Good that the artificial symmetry enforced, but this is a baby-bathwater problem. There's a happy middle ground that reserves Good for truly iconic creatures (such as the Gold Dragon) and doesn't worry about having the occasional Good adversary or rival, as long as it is used in moderation.

That bacteria display altruism is interesting, but doesn't mean a lot for D&D or the MMII.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Man, if this thread had all the derailing taken out of it (including this post! ), it would lose half the posts!

Fork people! Some interesting discussions but a lot of talk about game design in fluff and crunch and evolution theory vs alignment. Interesting but certainly not why some are reading.

Some are looking for those awesome tidbits of info about the monsters.

For example, has anyone used these bad boys in the game yet? By default, some of them probably already have since there appears to be some reprints but any of the others getting used?

 

[Rechan]

Another thing I've noticed; it seems the Devs want to split parties up. Because several monsters of different types, I note, have powers that let them drag people away. Check out the Ankheg - there's only one or two powers that severe, but there still exists a few; one demon can pull an Avenger - its schtick is teleporting a target, then teleporting beside said target. Another demon can snatch and fly its full speed with the target, without making Str checks.

There are a lot of demons and devils in the book.

For example, has anyone used these bad boys in the game yet? By default, some of them probably already have since there appears to be some reprints but any of the others getting used?

Tomorrow I'm using the Shadar-Kai Gloom Lord (been shown somewhere). However, I'm going to have to town it down (14th level Artillery in the book, 6th level artillery in my game); I'm having to water down one of the powers a hint, so it's less vicious.

What's funny is that the 4 Shadar-Kai in the book have a similar effect; they all cause a target to be Shrouded in Gloom. A target who's Shrouded in Gloom takes a -2 to attacks and gains half HP from healing (save ends). Each has a nasty AW ability that requires a target be Shrouded in Gloom.

 

[Jack99]

Sorry to bring the metallic alignment up again, but Dragoncat just posted this on the WotC board and I think that this is a very good in game explanation for this.
And while I still don't agree with WotC design for 4E even I can accept this explanation so I think most others who are not impressed by unaligned metalics can too

I am glad you found something to make things work for you. And yes, it's not a half-bad explanation.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Gee, try the other side of the bed for a change. If you want that game, more power to you, enjoy yourself, have fun, and such. Wizards has expressed the preference for good parties from the get-go in this game system, and I'm not going to apologize for being happy WOTC has done so even stronger in 4E.

If you need an evil game, play it. No one is stopping you.

You typed so much, and yet your response still remains "I'm so glad Wizards supports MY playing style! HAH HAH THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU!"

Once again I must ask: How would support for playing a non-good party take away from your good party?

Hey look, someone won a free thread-ban! Don't be a jerk to one another, please. ~ PCat