Mmmm...Libris Mortis.

[Psion]

The True Necromancer seems a bit too powerful IMHO. They are similar to a Mystic Theurge, gaining effective caster levels in both Arcane and Divine spellcasting at the same time, except for a few levels where it's just 1 or the other. In addition, they get fairly powerful class abilities at every level. The entry requirements are not really any harder than Mystic Theurge, and True Necromancer goes for 14 levels instead of 10. This means that you can go all the way to 20th level with it after entering the PrC at level 7. Because of the few skipped double spellcasting advances, you'll be effectively a 15th lvl arcane/15th lvl divine caster at 20th level, the same as a Mystic Theurge, but you'll rebuke Undead as a 17th lvl cleric, have a bunch of class abilities (such as Create Undead (a 6th lvl spell) 2/day, Create Greater Undead (8th lvl spell) 2/day, Horrid Wilting (an 8th lvl spell) 1/day, Energy Drain (a 9th lvl spell) 1/day, Wail of the Banshee (a 9th lvl spell) 1/day, and Necromantic Prowess which increases your effective caster level by +4 for all Necromantic spells and abilities, including all of the free abilities listed above! This is just too much, IMHO, and probably makes this the single most powerful PrC I've yet seen. If you restrict it to NPCs, that's fine, but I think it's too much for a PC...

Sounds a bit like my Charnel Lord (see here with a bit of a spin towards the 14-level approach of the Lifeweaver in Green Ronin's Bow & Blade. I'd have to look and see hust how many levels they give up, but it doesn't sound all that overpowered to me, based on the lifeweaver. I feel the Mystic Theurge gain a bit too much flexibility at high levels; I few less spellcasting levels in exchange for a few more fixed abilities sounds like just what the doctor ordered.

 

[Psion]

Dirgesinger - a "lamentable" bard (5 levels)

Wonder what Hellhound thinks of that, given there is a class in LE1/compiled that is basically that concept...

 

[Banshee16]

I picked this up today. Unfortunately, between Fable and Mortal Kombat Deception, I haven't been able to devote enough time to read much, but I did do a look through.

Pretty nice. The "necrotic" family of spells is just nasty (and I mean that in the "ooh..icky" way). Lots of new undead, variants for existing undead.

True Necromancer is not a core class, however, it is a 14 (or was it 13?) level PrC.

Very very cool book so far. Still not as cool as Draconomicon, but then, what is?

I've seen posts about people only buying WotC products, instead of D20, because they're better balanced, and well-tested, etc. Why is it, then, that the True Necromancer (I think that's the one) gets +1 spellcaster level in both arcane *and* divine, like the Mystic Theurge....but *also* gets a bunch of special abilities? Seems like the bar just got raised again....and this is supposed to balanced....?

Banshee

 

[Samurai]

I've seen posts about people only buying WotC products, instead of D20, because they're better balanced, and well-tested, etc. Why is it, then, that the True Necromancer (I think that's the one) gets +1 spellcaster level in both arcane *and* divine, like the Mystic Theurge....but *also* gets a bunch of special abilities? Seems like the bar just got raised again....and this is supposed to balanced....?

Banshee

We've been talking about the True Nec quite a bit in this thread already, and I for one agree they are too powerful... for a PC. But as they must be non-good, they could make an exceptionally powerful villain....

 

[Psion]

We've been talking about the True Nec quite a bit in this thread already, and I for one agree they are too powerful... for a PC. But as they must be non-good, they could make an exceptionally powerful villain....

I remember the early days of d20 when some third party publishers were putting out books with massively overpowered PrCs on the justification that they were intended as NPCs/sold their soul/whatever. That doesn't wash then and it doesn't wash now, IMO.

If it is overpowered, that is.

 

[Vecna]

I've seen posts about people only buying WotC products, instead of D20, because they're better balanced, and well-tested, etc. Why is it, then, that the True Necromancer (I think that's the one) gets +1 spellcaster level in both arcane *and* divine, like the Mystic Theurge....but *also* gets a bunch of special abilities? Seems like the bar just got raised again....and this is supposed to balanced....?

Banshee

Well, when Mystic Theurge appeared a lot of people complained about it.
Now the commpon opinion is that MT is quite balanced.
True Necromancer (what I've read here about it actually) doesn't get dual spellcasting progression every level.
So why don't you wait a bit and see if it's a balanced PrC?

If, for example, one of TN abilities is Horrid Wilting as (sp) ability once per day, I don't think it's something unbalanced. I'd call it "useless" from a min/max point of view.

 

[Samurai]

Sounds a bit like my Charnel Lord (see here with a bit of a spin towards the 14-level approach of the Lifeweaver in Green Ronin's Bow & Blade. I'd have to look and see hust how many levels they give up, but it doesn't sound all that overpowered to me, based on the lifeweaver. I feel the Mystic Theurge gain a bit too much flexibility at high levels; I few less spellcasting levels in exchange for a few more fixed abilities sounds like just what the doctor ordered.

They don't really give up any caster levels compared to a Mystic Theurge. At 20th level, a Mystic Theurge will have a grand total of 30 caster levels (maybe 15/15, maybe 17/13, but 30 total). They will have very few class abilities, only what they picked up as a lvl 3 Cleric or Wizard.

A TrNec will also have 30 total caster levels, but it will have to be 15/15, no other combo. They will have numerous class abilities, including 56 spell levels worth of free spells, rebuke undead as a 17th lvl caster (instead of 3rd-7th for a Theurge, depending upon his class split), a +4 caster level on all necromantic spells and abilities (including all of the 56 free spell levels worth), and so on. There is really no trade off in caster levels for special abilities by 20th level.

 

[PeterDonis]

But my favorite part of the book is the little sidebar in the introduction, where WotC gives a (very friendly and good-humored) "Get over it" to all the people complaining about the Latin.

Just out of curiosity, do they explain that it isn't even correct Latin? I haven't seen the book yet.

 

[Samurai]

Well, when Mystic Theurge appeared a lot of people complained about it.
Now the commpon opinion is that MT is quite balanced.
True Necromancer (what I've read here about it actually) doesn't get dual spellcasting progression every level.
So why don't you wait a bit and see if it's a balanced PrC?

If, for example, one of TN abilities is Horrid Wilting as (sp) ability once per day, I don't think it's something unbalanced. I'd call it "useless" from a min/max point of view.

The difference is a Theurge only goes for 10 levels. That means that by 20th level, the character has only 10 double-caster progressions, and 10 singlecaster progressions.

A True Nec works out exactly the same because it's a 14 level PrC... 10 single caster progressions and 10 double caster progressions, plus powerful class abilities at every level.

If Mystic Theurge continued for 14 levels, you'd have a point... then, at 20th level, the Theurge would be a 17/17 caster, while the True Nec only a 15/15 caster. Do you allow characters to keep advancing past 10th level as a Theurge as a house rule?

 

[Mouseferatu]

I've seen posts about people only buying WotC products, instead of D20, because they're better balanced, and well-tested, etc. Why is it, then, that the True Necromancer (I think that's the one) gets +1 spellcaster level in both arcane *and* divine, like the Mystic Theurge....but *also* gets a bunch of special abilities? Seems like the bar just got raised again....and this is supposed to balanced....?

Banshee

See comments above. The True Necromancer is flexible, but not powerful (except where it comes to actual necromancy).

As I said before, it's the Mystic Theurge all over again. People see the numbers and assume "Look at all those spells they can cast! They're overpowered!" But people don't think about the fact that they're massively weaker than single class casters--at 20th level, their five levels behind in spell power and in number of spells in any specific class. They still only have the hit points, saves, and BAB of a single individual.

Look at a 20th-level TN vs. a 20th-level wizard. The TN can also cast cleric spells, and that's potent. He can rebuke undead. He's got a few spell-like abilities.

The wizard has more spells of each level. The wizard's spells are more powerful (longer duration, more damage, etc.), except for necromantic spells. The wizard has an additional bonus feat. The wizard has 9th-level spells; the TN does not.

Compared to a 20th-level cleric. The cleric has 9th-level spells, the TN does not. The cleric's got a better attack bonus. The cleric's got better hit points. The cleric's spells are more powerful, as above.

The TN has two essential spellcasting stats. Assuming the TN was created with the same rolling or point buy system as the straight wizard or straight cleric, he's not likely to have as many bonus spells or as high a save DC against most of his spells, because he's dividing his bonus attribute points and enhancement items between two stats.

Most important, remember that the TN can still only cast one spell per round. It's the same reason Gestalt characters (from Unearthed Arcana) are only an EL of a few levels higher than a standard character of their level. Basically, the TN has more options of what he can do in a given round, but in any given round, he's going to be less mechanicaly effective than a straight caster.