Mmmm...Libris Mortis.

[Gez]

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the TMNT are appropriate for all styles of play.

Indeed! They have nothing to do in a self-respecting D&D campaign!

 

[Greybar]

However, the Adolescent Radioactive Black Belt Hamsters are practically a staple...

 

[ruemere]

Ari,
I'm impressed. And if you remember certain little thread at SSS fora on certain prestige class, you'll know why.

Sure I can. A cone of cold cast by a 15th-level Mystic Theurge or True Necromancer is weaker than a cone of cold cast by a straight wizard of the same level, because the MT/TN's caster level for wizard spells is lower.
[...]

Exactly. In any given situation, MT and TN are going to perform admirably, yet worse than any specialized core class. They are also going to get a worse ability array (does anyone wonder anymore why point-buy may improve game balance?) and, at lower levels, they are unlikely to wield spells which turn the tide of a conflict (Dimension Door, Ice Storm, Neutralize Poison, Raise Dead and a few other 4-6 level spells), whereas a typical wizard or cleric will cast them with gusto.

Oh, and don't forget Miracle, Wish and Limited Wish. Can't they mimick certain spells when cast?

With regard to MT - TN comparison, TN seems to come as a winner, however... it's been quite a time since MT was released. TN could be viewed as souped up MT variation, a result of playtesting. And much more restricted... correct me with I'm wrong, but it's much more difficult to get a death god to sponsor your divine abilities than <insert suitable deity of player preference> for MT.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Klaus]

Could anyone post the size of the new creatures in Libris Mortis?

 

[ecliptic]

What I don't get is why people don't argue this disadvantage of the MT and TN. If your character has taken either, that obviously means your DM allows PrCs. So by taking them that means you can't really take anyother PrC, which most allow +1 caster level.

You could argue that any Wizard or Cleric with a PrC is at an advantage with one that is not. Matter of fact I think MT is a bit weak when comparing it in such a way.

 

[Nightchilde-2]

For those interested in getting a good idea of what's in the book, I've posted a review at my site.

 

[the Jester]

Amusing tidbits for those who've gone through or read Return to the Tomb of Horrors are the Bleakborn (aka "Moilian Zombie") and the Dream Vestige (aka "The Vestige"). There are one or two quotes from the Bleak Academy, but that's not described in the list of sample locations.

Brad

Of course this comes out a few months after I run RttToH for my regular high-level group!

 

[buzz]

Just out of curiosity, do they explain that it isn't even correct Latin? I haven't seen the book yet.

According to the promo material at WotC's site, the actual "translation" of the title is "From the Books of the Dead". Considering the title is supposedly "mangled celestial", the plural dative of "Libris Mortis" works okay, as I understand it.

 

[jasamcarl]

It doesn't? You add up the spell levels. They are already weighted. You could make the argument that the weighting isn't proportional, but you can't say that by counting the levels you aren't counting the levels...



That depends highly on campaign style. It's not just about running out of slots/endurance. It's about always having the right tool for the job. A MT is the ultimate Swiss army knife. If you only ever face you players with one sort of challenge, then it's not a big advantage. Otherwise, it's a pretty big advantage.

For my gaming style, I find the breadth that the MT gets at high level to be pretty telling, but the idea of exchanging a few anvancement level for a few more specialized powers is just what the doctor ordered -- as is the case in Green Ronin's lifeweaver and my Charnel Lord.

Read my above post. They are NOT weighted for time neccessary to cast. It should be obvious why that makes a big difference.

Edit: This is important, because the number of actions, like AC, does not scale positivily as one progresses in level. In fact, combats tend to become shorter in terms of rounds spent. You could shoot out a few more spells with Quicken Spell, but then you would be extending those high level spell slots that the MT and TN don't have or else throwing completly garbage spells and making yourself completly useless. This means higher level spells are more important than simply comparing there spell levels would seem to indicate.

This debate has been had way too many times before, and while i'm willing to concede some degree of variability in how powerful any given class is in any given campaign, the standard four encounters of equal encounter level, the MT (and possibly the TN) will not come out looking at all exceptional.

 

[jasamcarl]

What I don't get is why people don't argue this disadvantage of the MT and TN. If your character has taken either, that obviously means your DM allows PrCs. So by taking them that means you can't really take anyother PrC, which most allow +1 caster level.

You could argue that any Wizard or Cleric with a PrC is at an advantage with one that is not. Matter of fact I think MT is a bit weak when comparing it in such a way.

It's also weak compared to a simple straight core class, or so the smarter arguments would indicate.