Mmmm...Libris Mortis.

[mythusmage]

However, the Adolescent Radioactive Black Belt Hamsters are practically a staple...

You're the other one! The ARBH, a spoof of a parody. My favorite was Clint. In d20 terms, a Gunmage12. (OGL Steampunk, Mongoose).

 

[jester47]

I'm hoping they errata the boldfaced part, as it makes no sense (are you creating vital organs in the incorporeal creature so you can crit it? if so, can your buddies sneak attack and crit the undead, too? or are they only there the instant you make your attack? if so, can your buddies ready an action to attack those organs when you create them?). This is one of the problem things in the book that I caught and they were trying to fix it in typesetting, and whatever they couldn't fix was going to be erratad.

Sean,

That seems to be a fairly limited view of the ability and dare I say the mechanics? Its a weapon type. Its magical property of a single weapon that does more damage to incorporeal undead if you 1) roll well and get a crit threat 2) Sneak up on an incorporeal undead and hit it if you have a level of Rogue. So as balnace goes, it does not seem that bad.

So mechanicly it works sort of like a burst weapon property. Icy burst only does more damage when you crit. This weapon only does more damage when you crit or pull off a sneak attack. This property is sort of like a positive energy burst weapon that favors rogue/assassin sneak attack ability.

I interpret the "critical" on this as if it touches the area occupied by an incorporeal undead too much, it takes a lot of positive energy damage. A sneak attack would be where the rogue sneaks up on it and just puts the sword in its space for a longer time than it would be there if you "chopped it in half." Thus more damage.

The sneak attack and the critical maechanic just seem to be there out of convenience rather than creating a new mechanic for the weapon. Its a special case. Its a better than ghost touch weapon, and that pretty much is that it allows more damage on what would normally be a critical hit or a successful sneak attack.

However while not conceptually bad, I think the language of the rule could be written better. Instead of "...can deliver sneak attacks or critical hits..." a better way to say it would be "...allows the extra damage from attacks that would normally be criticals or successful sneak attacks."

Using this interpretation and this language, you don't have your internal organ problem.

Aaron.

 

[jester47]

The max wizard casting level for the TN is 17th level. The max cleric level for a TN is 17. However to even get the class you have to start at minimum with a 10th level character. Wiz5/Clr5. So at 20th character level you have 10 level in TN. So that means you cast as a Wiz13/Clr13. Whereas your buddy the Wiz20 gets to cast as a Wiz20. Granted you have a lot more access to some really cool FYU spells, but at character level 20 you are not getting anything more than a 7th level spell. But you can cast more spells in a day, but it takes you longer to prepare them all. You get to wear armor. But wearing it disrupts your wizard castings. Plus, chances are you are probably fairly specialised.

Aaron.

 

[Swack-Iron]

I'm hoping they errata the boldfaced part, as it makes no sense (are you creating vital organs in the incorporeal creature so you can crit it? if so, can your buddies sneak attack and crit the undead, too? or are they only there the instant you make your attack? if so, can your buddies ready an action to attack those organs when you create them?). This is one of the problem things in the book that I caught and they were trying to fix it in typesetting, and whatever they couldn't fix was going to be erratad.

To me, this feels like a "let's give something to rogues for undead fights" mechanic, which the game was sorely lacking. Ever played a rogue in an undead-heavy campaign? Although useful for getting the party into the vampire lord's lair, completely useless in a fight. And, of course, anyone with these weapon properties is giving up some other useful weapon properties -- it's only useful against undead, after all.

 

[Mouseferatu]

The max wizard casting level for the TN is 17th level. The max cleric level for a TN is 17. However to even get the class you have to start at minimum with a 10th level character. Wiz5/Clr5. So at 20th character level you have 10 level in TN. So that means you cast as a Wiz13/Clr13. Whereas your buddy the Wiz20 gets to cast as a Wiz20. Granted you have a lot more access to some really cool FYU spells, but at character level 20 you are not getting anything more than a 7th level spell. But you can cast more spells in a day, but it takes you longer to prepare them all. You get to wear armor. But wearing it disrupts your wizard castings. Plus, chances are you are probably fairly specialised.

Aaron.

You sure you didn't mean Mythis Theurge, rather than True Necromancer? Because those numbers aren't right for the TN. You have to be 3/3 to pick up TN, and it advances a full 14 classes, but there are a few levels where you only pick up Arcane or Divine advancement, not both. The caster level for a 20th-level TN, assuming he was 3/3 when he started and took all 14 levels of the PrC, is 15/15.

None of which invalidates your basic point, though.

EDIT TO ADD: Wait a minute. You're right. I was only looking at the casting requirements, not the skill requirements.

I think those skill requirements are a mistake, though. Otherwise, why have 14 levels of the class, when you can only get 10? :\

Sigh...

EDIT AGAIN TO ADD: The sample True Necromancer is a cleric 3/wizard 3/TN5. Those skill requirements are definitely in error. I'm guessing they should both require 6 ranks, rather than 8.

 

[Dalamar]

I think those skill requirements are a mistake, though. Otherwise, why have 14 levels of the class, when you can only get 10?

Why? You don't have to be a 5th level wizard to have 8 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) or a 5th level cleric to have 8 ranks in Knowledge (Religion). You just need to be a 5th level character, which means that if you get your last wizard level at character level 5 (or have the Knowledge domain for your cleric levels), you don't even have to pay for the skills as cross-class

 

[shady]

Yes, Pluto was called Orcus too:
http://www.dl.ket.org/latin1/mythology/1deities/gods/olympians/hades.htm

Pluto was actually another Greek name for Hades (or Aides), it derives from the word for "rich" (which you can see in words like "plutocracy" - government by the rich) hence the Roman name "Dis" (rich) or "Dispater" (father of wealth). The "giver of wealth" was another aspect of Hades, through his connection with Persephone and Ceres/Demeter. Both the Romans and the Greeks used Pluto as a name.

The Romans also used Tartarus and Orcus. It seems likely that Orcus was either an Etruscan or Gaulish god of the dead. The Orcus aspect was the "angel of death" and as such is similar to Thanatos, who was the Greek embodiment of death (Terry Pratchett style) rather than king of the dead.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Why? You don't have to be a 5th level wizard to have 8 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) or a 5th level cleric to have 8 ranks in Knowledge (Religion). You just need to be a 5th level character, which means that if you get your last wizard level at character level 5 (or have the Knowledge domain for your cleric levels), you don't even have to pay for the skills as cross-class

*blink*

You're right. I'm an idiot.

That's what I get for arguing rules--not just here, but in several other conversations as well--for three days straight. My mind turns to oatmeal.

But actually (just to prove I haven't lost all my rules acumen ), it doesn't matter what order you take the classes in, since cleric and wizard both have Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion) as class skills.

 

[Mercule]

So mechanicly it works sort of like a burst weapon property. Icy burst only does more damage when you crit. This weapon only does more damage when you crit or pull off a sneak attack. This property is sort of like a positive energy burst weapon that favors rogue/assassin sneak attack ability.

Then make it a "positive burst" weapon. Sneak attack has been defined as the ability to hit important/sensitive bits with some accuracy. To turn it into nothing but a "bonus damage" mechanic robs it of its flavor.

I don't have the book, yet, so there may be something I'm missing. From what I am seeing, though, I've got to agree with Sean. Unless the weapon is somehow revealing vital spots or adding them where they didn't previously exist, sneak attack cannot be used.

Overall, though, I'm psyched for this book. Undead play a pretty major role in my game. This book will probably be of more use to me than any other in the series.

 

[Samurai]

Sure I can. A cone of cold cast by a 15th-level Mystic Theurge or True Necromancer is weaker than a cone of cold cast by a straight wizard of the same level, because the MT/TN's caster level for wizard spells is lower. That has no bearing whatsoever on total number of spell levels, and isn't measured by any such rubric.

Just wanted to correct you on 1 thing... a Cone of Cold cast by a 15th or 20th level caster is exactly identical. The range is a set 60' cone and doesn't increase with level. Damage is 1d6 per level, but to a max of 15d6. Saves are not affected by caster level. So they will be exactly the same, as will Fireballs (max 10d6), Lightning Bolts (max 10d6), Magic Missile (max 5 missiles at 9th lvl), and other attack spells of 5th lvl and below. Even Freezing Sphere, a 6th level spell, is limited to 15 dice, though Chain Lightning, another 6th lvl spell, is limited to 20th lvl.

So only a small handful of attack spells will actually do a few dice more of damage by a single class 20th lvl wizard vs a MT/TN...