Nightfall said:
Just curious then Shawn, are you gonna review Liber Mortis then?
The closest you're going to get to a review from me are these two articles:
10 Reasons for a Player to get LM
10 Reasons for a DM to get LM
jester47 said:
That seems to be a fairly limited view of the ability and dare I say the mechanics? Its a weapon type. Its magical property of a single weapon that does more damage to incorporeal undead if you 1) roll well and get a crit threat 2) Sneak up on an incorporeal undead and hit it if you have a level of Rogue. So as balnace goes, it does not seem that bad.
As balance goes, it's not bad. In a "makes sense/breaks an important game-physics rule and thus makes no sense" way it's very bad.
The rogue's SA ability is defined as, "If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself from her attack, she can strike a
vital spot for extra damage.... A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernable anatomies—undead ... lack vital areas to attack.."
The critical hit entry in the glossary defines a crit as, "A hit that strikes a vital area."
Both mechanics are defined as striking vital spots. Undead (ignoring vampires for the moment) don't have vital spots and can't be SA'd or critted. Introducing a weapon ability with a game mechanic that lets you SA/crit a rogue means that somehow that weapon ability is creating vital spots in the undead creature, letting you strike them, and (if your friends can't take advantage of those vital spots) instantly making those vital spots vanish again as soon as you withdraw your weapon ... well, it makes no sense in terms of how easy it would be to make a weapon do that, and why wouldn't it be more efficient to just make the weapon hit harder (like an enhancement bonus) or add positive energy to the damage.
As soon as you open the door for using the SA/crit mechanic on undead, you're saying that a character with Improved Critical (a guy who knows how to strike vital spots in a target ("you know how to hit where it hurts") is more effective with this weapon property against undead. You're saying someone with the
keen edge spell on their weapon (and thus the "improving its ability to make telling blows") is better at using this weapon property against undead. You're saying that the master rogue (Rog20) is amazingly good at using this weapon property to harm undead.
Excuse me,
incorporeal undead, creatures doubly immune to vital-spot attacks because they're undead (and thus have no vital spots) and because they're incorporeal (and thus have no spots at all).
Introducing a game mechanic that lets you SA/crit undead is like introducing a new fire spell that is "so hot it even hurts creatures with the fire descriptor who would normally be immune to fire." See how that makes no sense? A fire elemental is immune to all fire damage, but
this spell is "special" and its fire is "so cool" that it can hurt even a fire elemental,
a creature made out of fire. An undead is immune to sneak attacks and critical hits because it has no vital spots, but this new weapon property is "special" and its damage is "so cool" that it can
strike vital spots in a creature that doesn't have vital spots.
{So mechanicly it works sort of like a burst weapon property.}
Which would explain the crit part (though it doesn't explain at all why a guy who does 1d8+8 points of damage is better with this special weapon than the guy who just does 1d8+1 ... the precedent for burst mechanics still affecting crit-immune creatures is that the burst effect is constant and is what is still applied ... the way this weapon property works means that its "positive energy burst" its more effective in the hands of a guy with 30 Str than a guy with 10 Str, which implies that the power relies on something in the user rather than a positive energy burst from the weapon).
But saying it works like a burst weapon property doesn't explain how a sneak attack does more damage with this property. The "positive energy burst" triggers when the incorporeal undead is flanked? Flat-footed? Fooled by a feint? It makes no sense.
There's already a property that gives extra damage against undead that doesn't imply you're hitting a vital spot:
undead-bane.
Holy also does bonus damage against most undead. I wouldn't have a problem with a
positive energy property that worked like
flaming or even
flaming burst because (as weird as it is that burst weapons work on undead) there's a precedent for that. But there is
no precedent for sneak attacks working on undead, ever, and there's a reason for that (because of the reason why SAs work and why undead are immune to them).
Making SAs apply (and to a lesser extent, crits apply) to crit-immune creatures opens up some weird doors in the game rules and has the potential to introduce serious problems later. If I can make this weapon property for incorporeal undead, can I make an equivalent property for corporeal undead? If I have a
ghost strike vorpal weapon, does that mean I can cut off the head of an incorporeal undead, killing it instantly? Can an assassin (PrC) use a
ghost strike weapon to make a death attack (an attack triggered when you do a sneak attack that deals damage)? (The death attack normally would have no effect because it's a Fort save that doesn't affect objects and undead are immune to such things, but you're already using something undead should be immune to).
{I interpret the "critical" on this as if it touches the area occupied by an incorporeal undead too much, it takes a lot of positive energy damage.}
That follows the precedent set by burst weapons, yes.
{A sneak attack would be where the rogue sneaks up on it and just puts the sword in its space for a longer time than it would be there if you "chopped it in half." Thus more damage.}
1) That's not what a sneak attack is; a sneak attack is not "holding a weapon in the target for a longer time," it's "strike{ing} a
vital spot for extra damage"
2) Your reasoning implies that (a) anyone ought to be able to hold their weapon in an incorporeal undead longer than normal and thus do more damage to it, (b) ammunition like arrows and bolts should do more damage in successive rounds because it can get stuck in the target, (c)
all creatures in the game should be subject to these house rules, not just undead targeted by rogues with a
ghost-strike weapon.
So ... (1) You're changing the definition of what a sneak attack is, rather than realizing the problem is in the weapon property. You're fixing the wrong problem. (2) You don't want to Go There.
{The sneak attack and the critical maechanic just seem to be there out of convenience rather than creating a new mechanic for the weapon.}
Convenience is a poor excuse for game design if it breaks deliberate design constraints put into the game because of game-physics purposes.
{However while not conceptually bad, I think the language of the rule could be written better. Instead of "...can deliver sneak attacks or critical hits..." a better way to say it would be "...allows the extra damage from attacks that would normally be criticals or successful sneak attacks."}
Which still means that a character with the skill or magic to hit a creature in its vital spots is going to do more damage with this weapon than someone not so trained...
{Using this interpretation and this language, you don't have your internal organ problem.}
... and thus we do have the internal organ problem.
Mercule said:
Then make it a "positive burst" weapon. Sneak attack has been defined as the ability to hit important/sensitive bits with some accuracy. To turn it into nothing but a "bonus damage" mechanic robs it of its flavor.
Exactly.
jester47 said:
First anyone reading this should go back and see my paragraph in the cited post about the language of this weapon ability. Also also it needs to be pointed out that Ghost Strike only works on Incorporeal undead.
See my point above about incorporeal undead's double-justification of immunity to crits.
{Also it works like a ghost touch weapon meaning that spirits can weild it. They can disarm an enemy, or sunder the weapon. This is very much a two way street.}
Irrelevant to this discussion, as that's an aspect of the
ghost touch property, which nobody is arguing about.
{I see it kind of as an incorporeal undead vaccum. Like a magnet and a bunch of filings. You put the fililngs on a table top and spread them out. This is our wraith. If you have a magnet (our ghost strike weapon) and brush it by very quickly, you will get some filings (damaged wraith). The longer you leave the magnet in range of the filings it gets more (a critical). Then you could stick the magnet in the filings and use a circular motion to pick them up (a rogues sneak attack).}
Except you're still not using the correct definition of a sneak attack. Why isn't the rogue able to do this with an
undead-bane weapon against incorporeal or corporeal undead? Why isn't the rogue able to do this with a nonmagical weapon against undead, or against any other creature immune to crits?
{Thats the thing about the Rogue's sneak attack. He simply has time. He has more time to line up the shot and hit a vital.}
Again, you're making up additional rules to justify your altered interpretation of core rules so that this weapon property doesn't break the game rules. A rogue doesn't have "more time" when she gets a SA from flanking. She doesn't have "more time" when her opponent is flat-footed at the start of initiative. She doesn't have "more time" when her enemy is stunned. If she had "more time" she'd get more attacks in a round. If it was a matter of "more time,"
any character should be able to do this. In fact, there is a "more time to line up a shot" mechanic, it's called coup de grace, and
any character can do it,
but it doesn't work on undead because they don't have vital spots and spending time to line if for a "good shot" doesn't do any good.
{With this tool he has more time to stick the thing in the incorporeal undead and move it around some (as there are no vitals), thus draining it of its essesnce (like filings to a magnet) and doing more damage to the undead before it has a chance to react.}
So this weapon property gives the rogue "more time" ...
and at the same time it gives off a positive energy burst effect?
... One of my characters is a rogue who never can confirm a crit, and the "more-time-rogue" part of the
ghost strike ability would be perfect for him. Can I get a version of this weapon property that does only the "more-time-rogue" ability for cheaper than the listed full version cost?
... I have another character who has no sneak attack but crits like a madman and has a special ring that doubles all positive energy damage he deals to creatures. The "positive energy burst" half of the
ghost strike weapon property would be perfect for him. Can I get a version of this weapon property that just has the "positive energy burst" part, and cheaper than the listed full version?
Do you see how your game-rule justification of a flawed rule is just making the problem worse? The problem isn't in the definition of sneak attack, incorporeal, or critical hit, it's in
how this weapon property uses those rules. The problem is the weapon property.
teitan said:
Ok, I didn't think of this before but it just hit me pretty good... how useful would this book be in a Ghostwalk campaign? I love me some Ghostwalk but wanted some more to add to it outside of BoVD and the odd book out there... Would this book be keen for a GW game?
It would be handy, though more so for undead monsters/NPCs than for undead PCs.
book...
