"Modding" classes vs multiclassing

[Desdichado]

Gez, I find your approach interesting. I'm leaning more and more towards looking up alternate (and especially flexible) core classes and trying to minimize the appearance of prestige classes in my games lately.

Of course, I think my situation is a bit different -- a lot of my problems with the core classes revolve around the flavor associated with them.

Well designed core classes, though, don't need to be really numerous. I've been especially impressed with core classes in AU and Midnight that show an amazing degree of flexibility within a concept, thus negating the need for so many niche core classes.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'd rather have too many core classes than too many prestige classes.

But I think that there's hardly a need for a whole new core class for a lot of ideas, and I also think that a lot of ideas can be done with PrC's, or existing class/feat/PrC combos.

 

[Tsyr]

* Non-Supernatural Unarmed Warrior = Fighter
* Hedge Wizard = Adept

For your willingness to adopt or adapt core classes, I don't see why you are so unwilling to concede these. The fighter *will not* ever be a viable class for an unarmed fighter without extra prestige classes or feats that (insofar as I am aware) do not exist. Likewise, the Adept is *not* in any way balanced for a PC, but I maintain a hedge wizard can be.

Also, I feel compelled to once again point out that no one is asking for a non-supernatural unarmed fighter. What we are asking for is a non bad-kung-fu movie wire-fu unarmed fighter.

 

[I'm A Banana]

From the SRD:

IMPROVED NATURAL ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.

A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

Get improved unarmed strike, and you have a natural weapon that deals 1d3 points of damage. Allow the fighter to take this feat more than once (perhaps at every 4 levels...) Viola! Unarmed fighter! Go in on improved grapple feats and likewise, for extra milage. No reason to HAVE to ditch the armor, but if you want, ditch it in exchange for a grapple/trip/natural attack feat.

 

[Tsyr]

From the SRD:



Get improved unarmed strike, and you have a natural weapon that deals 1d3 points of damage. Allow the fighter to take this feat more than once (perhaps at every 4 levels...) Viola! Unarmed fighter! Go in on improved grapple feats and likewise, for extra milage. No reason to HAVE to ditch the armor, but if you want, ditch it in exchange for a grapple/trip/natural attack feat.

Still won't be of much if any use against things with damage reduction. Not to mention his AC will be abysmal if he does ditch armour.

This is what JD is saying. You could make a class that compared to the monk perfectly fine balance wise. But if you try to work within the confines of the classes and feats presented to you core, you are "punished" for not picking one of their archtypes.

*edit* Misread the damage entry; my other points still stand, however. And by the core rules, of course, you can't take this feat more than once, as far as I can tell.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Going for the 'big oily unarmed wrestler' archetype, it'd be better to start with the Barbarian than with the Fighter, really...keep the mod in taking that feat more than once, jack down the skill points in favor of bonus unarmed feats (probably 1/3 levels), and you're golden. The massive HP offsets the Getting Thwacked a Lot problem. Feats like the one above, toughness, Great Fort, etc.

And in that case, you're not punished for not choosing an archetype. You're just taking mechanics built around one archetype and shunting them a bit to the side, to design one similar, but slightly different. Barbarian is "Big Tough Muscly Guy with an Axe". We've made a wreslter: "Big Tough Muscly Guy with Muscles!"

Heck, you could even be justified in designing a PrC around it. Give 'em powers that let 'em take down some monstrous creatures (like grapple bonuses, Improved Grab, etc.).

Why go that extra mile and design an entire 20-level class, when a few DMG-supported mods, and a PrC can do the trick?

 

[Tsyr]

Why go that extra mile and design an entire 20-level class, when a few DMG-supported mods, and a PrC can do the trick?

I'm with JD again on this issue... it just feels better.

 

[drnuncheon]

Still won't be of much if any use against things with damage reduction.

3.0 DR or 3.5 DR? The latter is far easier to 'muscle through' - or you could use alternate tactics like grappling. (Hercules vs. the Nemean Lion...Beowulf vs. Grendel...)

AU has the very useful 'Hands as Weapons' feat that lets you, well, turn your hands into magic weapons...in case you wanted +1 thundering shocking burst fists. That may be too wuxia for some, but they can just get +5 fists, or add a few of the less obvious enhancements.

I once figured out that a fighter with Improved Unarmed Strike and Power Attack could pretty much keep up with a monk in terms of unarmed damage, as long as he was willing to put the difference between his BAB and the monk's into the PA (remember that each +1 from PA is the same average result as going up a die size - until you get to that d20 jump, anyway.)

That still leaves the AC problem, though. I suppose one could make an 'Iron Skin' feat that gave the taker natural armor, but you'd have everyone wanting to take it, not just your martial artists. A PrC ability would restrict that, but it would suck hard for your first five levels. (Then again, the great martial artists were supposed to be the product of decades of training, not stripling youths just setting out into the world - so maybe it makes sense...)

 

[Desdichado]

That still leaves the AC problem, though. I suppose one could make an 'Iron Skin' feat that gave the taker natural armor, but you'd have everyone wanting to take it, not just your martial artists. A PrC ability would restrict that, but it would suck hard for your first five levels. (Then again, the great martial artists were supposed to be the product of decades of training, not stripling youths just setting out into the world - so maybe it makes sense...)

Depends on the prereqs to the feat, I suppose. I'd just handle it as a class ability and mod it into an "unarmed fighter" variant, myself.

Then again, I think the Defender from Midnight perfectly suits my needs for an unarmed combatant.