[Modern] - mega lethal fireballs !?!

[Plane Sailing]

I don't know whether anyone has noticed (I haven't seen comments about it) but the fireball (and lightning bolt) have become *incredibly* lethal spells. Why?

Maximum Damage Threshold.

A caster with 10 levels in adept, perhaps a 14th/15th level character, can cast fireballs that do 10d6 damage. Average 35.

Fail your save, and its a massive damage check.

Make your save and you still take 17 damage, which is pretty much going to be a massive damage check for everyone *anyway* - only a few will have 18 Con.

So someone launching a 10d6 fireball is very likely to trigger a massive damage check from everyone in the 20ft radius burst area.

I wonder whether this issue was raised in playtesting, and what the rationale for leaving it open like this is?

Cheers

 

[threshel]

IMO, the lethality was intended. However, by the time that a character can take even 17 points of damage and remain standing, a DC 15 save isn't that hard. By the time that PC can handle 35 points, the save isn't very much at all. While it is true that as EL's increase, so will the occurance of saves v. Massive Damage, the instance of failures will drop. I suspect that when the party is 14th-15th level, saves v. MD will be common. At that level, though, it's a pretty easy save.
However, the possibility of rolling that "1" will keep everyone on their toes.

J

 

[Bagpuss]

Well considering that by 15th level most characters will have decent Reflex save against a fireball, a number will have taken the Evasion Talent for a single level of Fast Hero so take no damage. Others will have upped their Consitution either via magic or just the Attribute increases, so the DC 15 save to avoid the effects of Massive Damage will present very little problem.

I think its more likely that a 10d6 fireball will leave everyone standing and have no effect what so ever on characters of similar level.

 

[cybernetic]

The spell makes sense now IMHO....i mean if a group of people gets slammed by an exploding ball of fire...don't ya think some of em are gonna die?

 

[Plane Sailing]

IMO, the lethality was intended. However, by the time that a character can take even 17 points of damage and remain standing, a DC 15 save isn't that hard. By the time that PC can handle 35 points, the save isn't very much at all. While it is true that as EL's increase, so will the occurance of saves v. Massive Damage, the instance of failures will drop. I suspect that when the party is 14th-15th level, saves v. MD will be common. At that level, though, it's a pretty easy save.
However, the possibility of rolling that "1" will keep everyone on their toes.

J

I disagree with you here. Thinking of D&D sure a DC15 save isn't hard by that level - but magic bonuses to saves are much harder to come by in d20M, and class bonuses are way lower.

e.g. A 10th level strong or tough hero gets base +5 Fort, the best class bonus you could get at 13th would be a tough3/daredevil10, which would be +9 (2 from basic class, 7 from advanced class).

More typical heroes - say a strong/soldier 3/10, a fast/gunslinger 3/10 or a dedicated/investigator 3/10 would have a base Fort saves of +7, +4 and +5.

Even allowing for a +1 or +2 CON bonus, most of these guys will find a DC15 Fort save pretty threatening. Fast/Technicians particularly have to watch out!

 

[Plane Sailing]

Well considering that by 15th level most characters will have decent Reflex save against a fireball, a number will have taken the Evasion Talent for a single level of Fast Hero so take no damage. Others will have upped their Consitution either via magic or just the Attribute increases, so the DC 15 save to avoid the effects of Massive Damage will present very little problem.

I haven't done a similar check on the rate at which Reflex saves increase - I guess the best options are Fast/Martial artists at up to +9 or +10, worst would be stuff like strong medics at about +3... A Fast3/Gunslinger10 (not an uncommon route) would have a base +7 reflex save, plus his Dex bonus.

I agree that the evasion talent would be supremely useful in that kind of campaign, and would start showing up quickly... but I don't think *most* characters will have reflex saves of +10 or better - I would imagine that most characters would have Ref saves in the +6 to +9 range from looking at the class if there is a broad sweep of classes.

Still, it gives an excellent time to bust out those action points to get a boost to the saves!

Cheers

 

[Darkness]

I don't know whether anyone has noticed (I haven't seen comments about it) but the fireball (and lightning bolt) have become *incredibly* lethal spells. Why?

Maximum Damage Threshold.

Well, at least it won't kill 'em; in d20 Modern, failing a Mas check just makes you go straight to -1 (unlike, say, D&D, where you die instantly).

 

[Trepelano]

I disagree with you here. Thinking of D&D sure a DC15 save isn't hard by that level - but magic bonuses to saves are much harder to come by in d20M, and class bonuses are way lower.

No harder to come by than access to a fireball spell - I would think.

 

[takyris]

I don't know about that. I'm planning on doing magic in my campaign where the bad guys have access to it with impunity, whereas good guys have to scrounge and bleed for every spell they get -- and casting those spells is dangerous.

In my campaign, some insane fire-warlock might be able to chuck a fireball more than once per combat, but I seriously doubt that the party will have the magical ability on-hand to do buff spells.

-Tacky

 

[Lord Zardoz]

A few pertinent facts...

"e.g. A 10th level strong or tough hero gets base +5 Fort, the best class bonus you could get at 13th would be a tough3/daredevil10, which would be +9 (2 from basic class, 7 from advanced class)."

Your forgetting that a Fort save gets the characters Con bonus. I would think that someone playing a Tough would have at least a decent Con score. Your DareDevil character could also use their Adrenaline Rush class ability to kick their Con score up (and kick their Damage Threshold and Fort save up right along with it).

A player can also take the Great Fortitude (+2 on fort saves), and Improved Damage Threshold to further reduce the chances of biting it against a high damage spell.

But, one cannot predict a characters Feats and Stats ahead of time, so much of what I am suggesting may not apply. But there is one more thing you should also consider, which Plane Sailing pointed out...

Player characters have Action Points, and the Save DC for massive damage is a known quantity. Unless the player is completely out of action points, they can burn a few to improve EITHER save (massive damage or save vs fireball). Unless a 1 is rolled, most players at Character level 10 should not have an undue amount of difficulty with that save.

Now, if your throwing fireballs at 3rd level D20 Modern characters, you may want to reconsider the practice.

END COMMUNICATION