Modified Master of Chains

[Kodam]

Hi!

I’ve tried to modify the Master of Chains from Sword & Fist to make it a bit more „player-friendly“. Do you think the following changes will make the MoCh too powerful?

No alignment required.

Chain Climbing (instead of Chain Fighting): When climbing on a chain the MoChs climbing speed is twice as fast and he gets +2 on climb checks.

Ist a little less fixed on the guy swinging through a room filled with chains beside the Kython that way...

Chain Armor: After adding 20ft. of chain links into his Spiked Chain, the MoCh can wrap it around himself. He gets an Armor-AC Bonus of +5 from it with no max Dex-Mod and an ACP of –2. By twisting the chains around him he still can vary between reach and double weapon. Since the SC is wrapped around him, he gets a +10 circumstance bonus against disarm attempts. But he can’t drop it in reaction to a failed trip attempt. The section in the middle may be enchanted independent from the weapon part which still count as one weapon for this purpose.

I just like the image...

Superior Spiked Chain: The SC gets the wounding quality by modifying the spikes (cost 25 GP). This will get used up by time, depending on the enemies Armor or Nat. Armor AC-Boni (DMs call). The renewal costs 10 GP.

If ist used up after 5 strikes it won’t even last through one single fight.

Swinging Attack: As in S & F but he can swing up to 40 ft. and the foe is not treated as flat-footed.

If there’s a foe in a distance of 10 ft I’d rather make a full attack then. Above its just a better charge; the normal charge-rules apply.

Kodam

 

[Kodam]

Hi!

No opinions at all?

(Sorry for the self-bump... )


Kodam

 

[Shallown]

I like the Chain Climbing though as an alternative you could allow them to just take 10 (even during situations you normally can't) and move normally when climbing That should make it still useful and have the same effect.

I like the chain armor including the disarm/dropping rule. I think I would lean to this being a whole new weapon or something so that you could define it completely with a new cost and all. Allowing the center part to be enchanted as armor.

Also I don't remember if master of chains gave you two weapon fighting but I always thought it was visually and mechanics wise cool to allow a spiked chain person to use the weapon like a quarter staff and lose reach.

I didn't much care for the superior spiked chain. Giving a magic ability for free is okay but making it use the mechanics is does is a pain. Perhaps a Master of chains can use a spiked chain as a wounding weapon for certain number of times a day or something like that. Once again modifiying seems like you should just make a new weapon that has different stats like more damage. Seems sort of clumsy in a way to me.

I like the swinging attack. Though I would allow the target to be flat footed if the Master was not previously detected sort of like a rogue can use Hide/silent if he can get to the target without detection (I think they have to be within 10 feet of cover to do it)

To be quite honest I didn't care for the master of chains to start with. I don't like the supernatural component to it with the scare chains and later animate ability.

Somewhere on the board is my Black Chains which is a spiked chain fighter/rogue class I created. I'll slap it up when I get home and maybe you can steal some ideas from it to use.

Hopefully I have been helpful. I'll take another look when I have master of chains in hand to compare.

Later

 

[Kodam]

Hi!

Thanks to your reply, Shallown.


Taking 10 on climb check...why not. I'll suggest it to my DM and see what he likes more...

If I design it as a new weapon altogether I'd need to take exot. weap. prof. or at least weapon focus and weapon spec. for it again. Needn't be... But I already had the center part as being armor which could be enchanted as such.

The MoCh doesn't give you TWF you still have to take that extra. But the MoCh enables you to switch the SC from reach to double weapon and back as you like. I think that's the main thing about this whole class. When using it as double weapon you loose the reach, of course.

In S&F is like that: the opponent is treated as flat-footed but the swing attack only has a reach of 10 feet. If an enemy is within 10 ft of my MoCh I*d rather hit him with a full attack. So I tried to balance out this increased reach of 40ft by dropping the flat-footedness.


Any others?

Kodam

 

[Shallown]

Well if you design the weapon you can easiy say all focus/spec apply to it from Spiked chain.

I thought it would be cool you get TWF but only when you use it that way. your trading out reach for that and you could only change it the same as power attack and expertise Ie it last until the next round.

I see what you were trying for I just think it would be cool to swingout of the shadows and do it. I honestly don't care much for the whole idea. I mean if your a swashbuckler guy then yeah but if your a tank with a chain (which can be done) it doesn't jive.

Here is the PrC I did. I doubt you would want to use it but there might be some abilities you can trade in or out with master of chains. Of course it is over powered and not updated to 3.5 but here it is.


The Black Chains
The Black Chains are members of the city's thieves guild but operate as a self contained group. They seek to maintain the status quo of the city. The guild has learned any major disruption to the city's normal routine affects the guild, usually to its detriment. The Black Chains operate from a militant stance to control and guide any major upsets to the city. Plague, invasion or other events are addressed by the Black Chains. They travel outside the city and may join groups of adventurers and other organizations that one would not normally associate with the thieves guild but a Black Chain will still seek to control the group to their own ends ie the Guild's ends. Those in the guild recognize a Black Chain by their darkly colored spiked chains.
Since the Black Chains are a more militant arm of the thieves guild they sometimes act as shock troops for the guild in keeping the guild strong and dealing with splinter thief guilds or those that do not "tow the line" for the guild. Members of the Guild are often trained/groomed for the Black Chains.
Most Black chains are trained fighters and rogues though some other classes can advance into this prestige class it is unusual.

Requirements
BAB : +7
Skills : Tumble 5 Ranks, Bluff 5 Ranks, Gather information 5 Ranks
Feats : Exotic Weapon (Spiked Chain), Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain), Expertise ; Improved Trip or Improved Disarm
Alignment: Any Non-Lawful
Other : +2d6 in sneak attack.
Class skills : Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Innuendo (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silent (Dex), Profession (Int), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex)

Skill Points : 6 + Int Modifier.
Hit Dice : 1d8
Starting Feats : Alertness, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Improvised chains/Flexible weapon), May take Weapon Specialization with Spiked chain using a normal Feat.

BAB good (cleric)
Saves Ref good others poor.

class abilities
1st - disarm trip bonus / sneak attack +1d6
2nd- climb fighting / challenged tumble
3rd - extended tumble / improved fient / D/T bonus
4th - Double chain / sneak attack +2d6
5th - D/T bonus / rogue special ability
6th - canny focus
7th - D/T bonus / Imp Critical / Sneak attack +3d6
8th - rogue special ability
9th - Imp canny focus / D/T bonus
10th - Sneak attack +4d6



Disarm & Trip Bonus - On Trip and Disarm attacks, when contesting against opponent gain a bonus equal to +1 for each odd level of Black Chain, So +1 at 1, 3, 5, 7, 9. This bonus only applies when using a Spiked Chain or Flexible weapon (chain).
Sneak Attack - Works as Rogue Sneak attack and stacks.
Climb Fighting - Suffers no penalties when climbing and fighting. Opponents gain no advantage. (Works as Master of Chains Climb fighting)
Challenged Tumble - When someone attempts to Tumble through an area threatened by the Black Chain they make a normal tumble roll but still suffer an attack of opportunity. If the Black chain can make one ie has not performed their limit this round or is not flat footed (though combat reflexes allows an attack in this case) etc. The Tumble roll or the normal AC, which ever is higher, is the AC the Black chain must hit during this attack of opportunity. (Example - A rogue tumbles around a Black Chain, he normally has an AC of 18 but rolls a Tumble check at 23. The Black Chain can roll to hit an AC of 23 even though this would normally be a successful tumble)
Extended Tumble - This allows the tumble movement to increase from 20 feet to 30 feet but cannot exceed the Black Chain's normal movement rate.
Improved Feint - Feinting using the Bluff skill becomes a Move equivalent action instead of a Standard action. (As per Gladiator)
Double Chain - The character can use their Spiked chain as a double weapon and gains the Ambidexterity and Two weapon feat when doing so. The threat range/reach for the spiked chain drops to 5 feet when the weapon is used in this manner for that round.
Rogue Special ability - The Black chain may choose one of the Rogue Special abilities normally gained by a 10th level Rogue.
Canny Focus - By focusing their mind on a single pursuit/task the Black chain can add their Intelligence modifier to a Saving throw, Skill, Base attack, Armor class or Stat check as an insight bonus. Used as a free action and lasting a round ( or perhaps more than a round for some skill use at the GM's discretion ie for skills requiring more than one round (such as disable device) to be reasonably executed but seldom more than one roll in any case). It is usable once per level in Black Chain per day.
Increased Critical - Add 1 to the Critical Range of the Spiked chain, stacks with Improved critical.
Improved Canny Focus - May now apply the Bonus to two separate rolls in a round as a Free action and number of uses per day increases by 3 Plus positive Wis modifier (Reflecting the will power required to focus on a task)

 

[Kodam]

Hi!

Nice Ideas. I especially like the Trip/Disarm Bonus.

The Tumble skill is under constant discussion. It doesn't seem to fit that the capabilities of the defender don't matter at all. I already thought about letting the tumbler choose between his usual AC or his tumble skill check as AC for the AoO as a general house rule but i didn't implement it yet. Its a little better in 3.5 than it was in 3.0 for now at least the number of opponents and the surface matter. But I'm still net really happy with it...

But it again seems a bit powerful. If was a rogue in your campaign, I'd add some levels of Fighter and go for it! Almost all "powerful" skills are still class skills, i get more HP, my sneak attack still increases, I even get two special abilities!

I think I'll show it to my DM...

Kodam

 

[Shallown]

Yeah it is a little over the top and was more or less designed for my fighter/rogue character. I never got a chance to take any levels in it and see how it ran since we finished up the campaign before I got a chance. I would probably rewrite it now for 3.5 especially since tripping is such a nasty effect now with teh AofO from standing.

Our tumble rule is 10 plus Bab is the dc for going through a threaten area and 20+ bab to go through a threatened area. The players who concentrate on tumble can suaully do this but the last session proved how tough it can be becuase half the tumble attempts got squashed in mid attempt. Tumble is a lot better balanced in 3.5 though not perfect that is why I kept the house rule. I think it has precedence with the Fient rulling adding Bab to Sense motive rule. I just think it works better. My Dc adjustment scaled so far by level as well.

I need to sit down and rewrite the Black chains for 3.5. I liked the idea for roleplay reasons and the abilities.

Woud lose the bonus alertness feat and probably make it a required feat. The exotic flexible weapons feat makes sense more if you add in the new 4 spiked chain weapons I added for use by the class. I didn't add them in this time to save space but they were more os less a heavyier chain, a longer chain that acted like a whip a chain that was designed for the TWF ability and such. Sorry can't remember them all.

Hope it helps.

Later

 

[Darklone]

Nice stuff, though a little bit on the strong side. I don't like sneak attack as prerequisite though, it fits nicely but makes this a rogues-only class... Balance: the cleric BAB is a huge backdrop for the TWF fighting style and lowers the chance for Power Attacking...

I like it.

 

[Shallown]

Darklone it is meant to be a rogue/fighter multiclass but It would be easy to lose Sneak attack and the sneak requirement and lose class skills make it a fighter spiked chain class with no big effort. The abilities except for Sneak attack and rogue specials are useful to a straight fighter.

I may have to rework and balance it out for 3.5 as both. Make them related classes somehow. Just a thought.