Mods shutting down threads for threadcrapping

Gradine

Final Form (she/they)
This is something that's been bothering me for a bit, and I know that it's probably a deliberate choice but I still want to get it off my chest.

It's really crappy when threads get shut down because of trolls crapping on the thread.

It happens, routinely, every time there is an attempt at a serious conversation around issues of oppression and misrepresentation in RPGs. And the end result always feels like this:
Trolls: "This is nothing, this conversation shouldn't be happening!" x30
Mods: "Stop trying to get this conversation shut down! We're shutting this conversation down!"

And on the one hand? I get it, I totally get it. The mod team is only three people (two of whom are, to my knowledge, volunteers), and you want to keep this forum civil, and nothing ruins civility on this or any space on the internet like a conversation about racist/sexism/homophobia/transphobia/etc. But also like... it's handing the anti-inclusivity trolls exactly what they want? And completely chills any attempt at a serious discussion about how to help our community and the biggest and loudest voices within it to do better by all of the members within it.

Speaking for myself, I'd like to talk about how we, as a consumer community, can create actual change with regards to, say, WotC's absolutely horrific track record of casual (if unintentional) racism towards black people. But I feel like I can't, at least not here, where I feel like I'm most likely to find the most like-minded and well-intentioned folks to work towards that changed. I feel silenced.




And not by the trolls.

/2c
 

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beancounter

(I/Me/Mine)
Speaking for myself, I'd like to talk about how we, as a consumer community, can create actual change with regards to, say, WotC's absolutely horrific track record of casual (if unintentional) racism towards black people. But I feel like I can't, at least not here, where I feel like I'm most likely to find the most like-minded and well-intentioned folks to work towards that changed. I feel silenced.
The easiest way to influence a company is to vote with your dollars.

Screaming "racist" at anyone who even slightly disagrees with the majority, or accusing people who disagree with majority of being trolls is not a productive way to promote change.
 




beancounter

(I/Me/Mine)
This is objectively untrue in this era of social media. It's also irrelevant to the points that Gradine is making about threadcrapping. Indeed, it might even be considered threadcrapping in and of itself.

The OP quote specifically asks "how can we as a community change WoTC's horrific track record"

So, since WoTC is a company that wants your dollars, saying "vote with your dollars" is relevant.

And you are engaging in the behavior that I mentioned in my post - You are accusing me of threadcrapping (trolling) because you disagree with me....
 
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the Jester

Legend
The OP quote specifically asks "how can we as a community change WoTC's horrific track record"

So, since WoTC is a company that wants your dollars, saying vote with your dollars is relevant.

And you are engaging in the behavior that I mentioned in my post - You are accusing me of threadcrapping (trolling) because you disagree with me....
That's what it looks like to me, too- like you're basically saying, "Eh, this isn't worth talking about, vote with your dollar, no discussion necessary."

Meanwhile, I think a lot of us agree that this is a topic worth discussing. Very much so.
 

beancounter

(I/Me/Mine)
That's what it looks like to me, too- like you're basically saying, "Eh, this isn't worth talking about, vote with your dollar, no discussion necessary."

Meanwhile, I think a lot of us agree that this is a topic worth discussing. Very much so.

Again, "vote with your dollars" is a solution. It may not be one that you like, or think is effective, but it is answering the OPs question directly.

And I am discussing it. Maybe not in verbose paragraphs, I am AM discussing it.
 

aco175

Legend
I have been working on knowing people here are not my friends. I may like things some/most people say or feel like I know some posters more than others and are 'friendly' with them, but there is no joking like people hare are my in-person friends. There are 1000s of people here and no way can everyone agree with everyone.

I have been more careful about not engaging in topics I know are on fire or will get me nowhere. It's sad that there cannot be more lengthily discussions without them breaking down, but I think that is the way it is.
 

Irlo

Hero
Did you really just threadcrap in a thread about threadcrapping??
Well, no. What make you think I did?

EDIT: Oh, I see. To clarify, I think this thread is productive conversation.

I was responding to this post:

Screaming "racist" at anyone who even slightly disagrees with the majority, or accusing people who disagree with majority of being trolls is not a productive way to promote change.

No one here is doing that. No one is making those unproductive claims to promote change. So we can have a productive conversation without worrying about those unproductive claims.
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
The easiest way to influence a company is to vote with your dollars.

Screaming "racist" at anyone who even slightly disagrees with the majority, or accusing people who disagree with majority of being trolls is not a productive way to promote change.

That knife cuts both ways.

If one sees a thread about what some people consider racism, coming in to just deny the problem exists is not a productive way to engage in the topic either. And, to be perfectly honest, you'd need to make a pretty amazing argument to support the idea that folks don't generally know this will turn out badly.

What do you call a person who comes in, and engages in behavior they know will be disruptive but not constructive?
 


Gradine

Final Form (she/they)
That knife cuts both ways.

If one sees a thread about what some people consider racism, coming in to just deny the problem exists is not a productive way to engage in the topic either. And, to be perfectly honest, you'd need to make a pretty amazing argument to support the idea that folks don't generally know this will turn out badly.

What do you call a person who comes in, and engages in behavior they know will be disruptive but not constructive?
This what gets me, and why I started this thread, because I know you and the other mods are entirely sympathetic to this point. My question then becomes why shuttering threads has become the answer to deliberately disruptive behavior?
 

Trolls: "This is nothing, this conversation shouldn't be happening!" x30
x30? Really?
There were like maybe 3-4 people in that thread that didn't agree on the main issue with the rest.
The hyperbole that is utilised is not helpful in that thread or this.
Speaking for myself, I'd like to talk about how we, as a consumer community, can create actual change with regards to, say, WotC's absolutely horrific track record of casual (if unintentional) racism towards black people. But I feel like I can't, at least not here, where I feel like I'm most likely to find the most like-minded and well-intentioned folks to work towards that changed. I feel silenced.
I believe all who visited that thread understood everyone's side of the argument. No one was left out in the cold.
I mean sometimes these threads (and I'm including the NuSTR and the 2 that bullied everyone - forget their names) can go on for a while as the same posters post their shock and horror again and again in different words. I mean how many posts does one need to describe ones feelings before one doesn't feel silenced?

EDIT: Given how you feel have you actually even written a letter to WotC about this issue? Perhaps make a +thread on how to make that species better for the player base, using some of the existing law but modifying it so that its not offensive.
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Speaking for myself, I'd like to talk about how we, as a consumer community, can create actual change with regards to, say, WotC's absolutely horrific track record of casual (if unintentional) racism towards black people. But I feel like I can't, at least not here, where I feel like I'm most likely to find the most like-minded and well-intentioned folks to work towards that changed. I feel silenced.

I am sorry about how these things turn out. It isn't how I'd prefer it, myself. We are limited, however, by practical matters of the medium.

I must note, though, that posting here isn't really a great way to create change in WotC. If you want to do that with any hope of success, you must ultimately communicate with WotC. There is no official WotC presence on these boards, so writing here means they don't officially see it.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
x30? Really?
There were like maybe 3-4 people in that thread that didn't agree on the main issue with the rest.
The hyperbole that is utilised is not helpful in that thread or this.

So, in terms of number of posts x30 is more accurate. A small number of people can generate a great volume of drek that, if we want to at least try to be fair, we have to wade through and consider individually.
 

As a general thought, I think that people using (+) threads more often would be helpful.

I've noticed a trend lately where (+) threads seem to get less posts than other threads. I think some people are afraid that if they are too argumentative in a (+) thread, they'll get in trouble. IMNSHO, the only way to change that ideology is for (+) threads to become more normalized.
 

Gradine

Final Form (she/they)
I am sorry about how these things turn out. It isn't how I'd prefer it, myself. We are limited, however, by practical matters of the medium.

I must note, though, that posting here isn't really a great way to create change in WotC. If you want to do that with any hope of success, you must ultimately communicate with WotC. There is no official WotC presence on these boards, so writing here means they don't officially see it.
Such direct communications to WotC matter little when sent individually, but when collaboratively joined together by a larger community, can create change.

When such collaborations are derailed and shut down, that can't actually happen.
 

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