hammymchamham
First Post
Ascending Crane said:
From Oni's sig
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MoF Incantatrix, wow
- Thread starter Dash Dannigan
- Start date
From Oni's sig
If you are into massively damaging spells and mind-blowing save DCs, then the Incantrix is definitely for you.
Asking someone to plan the perfect sorcerer or wizard from level 1 invariably leads to one of two responses:
Sor 6/Incantrix 10/Archmage 4
or
Wiz 5/Incantrix 10/Archamge 5
Once you start picking up levels of Archmage with Master of Elements and Mastery of Shaping, you become one BAMF.
Of course if you are more into super duper save DCs then Wiz 5/Red Wizard 10/Archmage 5 is right up your alley. There's nothing like casting disintegration at a 20th level Barbarian in Greater Rage and him having to roll a 20 to survive.
Asking someone to plan the perfect sorcerer or wizard from level 1 invariably leads to one of two responses:
Sor 6/Incantrix 10/Archmage 4
or
Wiz 5/Incantrix 10/Archamge 5
Once you start picking up levels of Archmage with Master of Elements and Mastery of Shaping, you become one BAMF.
Of course if you are more into super duper save DCs then Wiz 5/Red Wizard 10/Archmage 5 is right up your alley. There's nothing like casting disintegration at a 20th level Barbarian in Greater Rage and him having to roll a 20 to survive.
Oni
First Post
Well, I'm only human, sometimes I just express my opinion.
But I'll go into my reasoning.
First of all what do you give up.
A sorcerer gives up Familiar advancement, and possible a feat if you have them take cosmopolitan or education or something like that. A wizard gives up Familiar advancement and to feats slots that can be used for either item creation or meta-magic feats. Both give up some access for higher level spells from one or more schools (which I might add is hardly a sacrifice for a sorcerer given their limited spell selection).
Now lets look at the prereqs. Hurm....concentration, knowledge (arcana), spellcraft, and knowledge (the planes). Well except for the knowledge (the planes) these are skill that just about every arcane spellcaster is going to have. Feats: Iron will, I would hardly call this a waste, it decidedly benefical as will saves are important to surviving in dnd, but lets say that you consider this also a feat that you give up. And then there is a metamagic feat, the class reward metamagic feats, of course your going to have one. And finally the ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells, hardly a prereq at all.
So now what do you gain for your trouble.
-3 bonus metamagic feats, more than the sorcerer lost if you count and breaking even for the wizard. (that is if you considered feats for getting in wasted.)
-a small bonus to banishing extraplanar creatures. no great shakes there.
- the ability to see and affect ethreal creatures. thats not too bad.
-immune to death effects and energy drain. that is really good.
- for sorcerers the ability to use meta magic without taking a full round action. for wizards the ability to apply a known metamagic feat to a spell on the fly without upping the level.
-they ability to cast metamagic at a reduced level cost, now your realling getting some benefit out of that metamagic feat you had to know to get in.
-the ability to drain charged items for healing or temp HP, in great amounts I might add. 1d6 per spell LEVEL drained. thats right one charge from a wand of fireballs heals 3d6 hp or grants that in temp HP
Ok, now does anyone see a disparity in what is lost vs. what is gained? Well I do. Frankly several of the class abilities make no sense in regards to the class description and seem needlessly tacked on. I don't think there is another spellcasting PrC in any of the WotC stuff that gives so much for so little (this I may be mistaken on, but it certainly isn't in any of the books I own).
But I'll go into my reasoning.
First of all what do you give up.
A sorcerer gives up Familiar advancement, and possible a feat if you have them take cosmopolitan or education or something like that. A wizard gives up Familiar advancement and to feats slots that can be used for either item creation or meta-magic feats. Both give up some access for higher level spells from one or more schools (which I might add is hardly a sacrifice for a sorcerer given their limited spell selection).
Now lets look at the prereqs. Hurm....concentration, knowledge (arcana), spellcraft, and knowledge (the planes). Well except for the knowledge (the planes) these are skill that just about every arcane spellcaster is going to have. Feats: Iron will, I would hardly call this a waste, it decidedly benefical as will saves are important to surviving in dnd, but lets say that you consider this also a feat that you give up. And then there is a metamagic feat, the class reward metamagic feats, of course your going to have one. And finally the ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells, hardly a prereq at all.
So now what do you gain for your trouble.
-3 bonus metamagic feats, more than the sorcerer lost if you count and breaking even for the wizard. (that is if you considered feats for getting in wasted.)
-a small bonus to banishing extraplanar creatures. no great shakes there.
- the ability to see and affect ethreal creatures. thats not too bad.
-immune to death effects and energy drain. that is really good.
- for sorcerers the ability to use meta magic without taking a full round action. for wizards the ability to apply a known metamagic feat to a spell on the fly without upping the level.
-they ability to cast metamagic at a reduced level cost, now your realling getting some benefit out of that metamagic feat you had to know to get in.
-the ability to drain charged items for healing or temp HP, in great amounts I might add. 1d6 per spell LEVEL drained. thats right one charge from a wand of fireballs heals 3d6 hp or grants that in temp HP
Ok, now does anyone see a disparity in what is lost vs. what is gained? Well I do. Frankly several of the class abilities make no sense in regards to the class description and seem needlessly tacked on. I don't think there is another spellcasting PrC in any of the WotC stuff that gives so much for so little (this I may be mistaken on, but it certainly isn't in any of the books I own).
SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS
Explorer
Let´s see... With a 9th level slot you can cast a 6 x empowered flame arrow, resulting in 5 16d6 flame arrows... on average 280 of damage... empower rlz!
Inproved metamagic epic feat is so powerfull that you need a 27th level wizard to get...
The incatatrix is powerfull enougth without the improved metamagic thing....
Inproved metamagic epic feat is so powerfull that you need a 27th level wizard to get...
The incatatrix is powerfull enougth without the improved metamagic thing....
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I have to agree that I think the primary imbalance is with the "metamagic reduction" which is what is inherently broken. I think this would have worked better if they said you may choose ONE metamagic feat to reduce by a level, and it can't be empower or maximize (ie, it shouldn't affect the damage).
Otherwise, the class is good, but relatively balanced.
Otherwise, the class is good, but relatively balanced.
Shard O'Glase
First Post
I think if it was -1 from the total metamagiced spell, that would be fine as well. I t would reduce the stacking empower problem, since if you empowerd twice it would be a 4-1=3 level higher spell,
not a +2-1+2-1=+2 level spell.
I generally don't have a big problem with empower/maximize etc. because big boom spells quite frankly suck. A double empowered fireball level 7 spell does 20d6 at 13th level, though its save is weak. So 70 or 35 points of damage without considering elemental resistances. Gee that scared me so much i have to change my shorts. Heck even throw in haste, and a quickend fireball, for a range of 175-98 points of daamge and I'm still not that impressed. Sure and wiz/sor your facing are dead at that level, but most big monsters sneer at your. Come up with a fighter/barb/ranger/rogue damage out put min/max at 13th level and this just fails to impress.
I'm much more worried about the save or else spells. A chained hold monster is much more of a worry to me as a DM than this damage out put stuff. Heck what's really frightning is a wiz/sor/cleric who has multiple save or else spells of different save types prepared.
So sure a +1 level for empower or +2 level for maximize is powerful,(and if they let it stack at +1 level is too good) but so are many fighter/uber fighter(or rogue/rogue prestige etc) prestige class combos.
not a +2-1+2-1=+2 level spell.
I generally don't have a big problem with empower/maximize etc. because big boom spells quite frankly suck. A double empowered fireball level 7 spell does 20d6 at 13th level, though its save is weak. So 70 or 35 points of damage without considering elemental resistances. Gee that scared me so much i have to change my shorts. Heck even throw in haste, and a quickend fireball, for a range of 175-98 points of daamge and I'm still not that impressed. Sure and wiz/sor your facing are dead at that level, but most big monsters sneer at your. Come up with a fighter/barb/ranger/rogue damage out put min/max at 13th level and this just fails to impress.
I'm much more worried about the save or else spells. A chained hold monster is much more of a worry to me as a DM than this damage out put stuff. Heck what's really frightning is a wiz/sor/cleric who has multiple save or else spells of different save types prepared.
So sure a +1 level for empower or +2 level for maximize is powerful,(and if they let it stack at +1 level is too good) but so are many fighter/uber fighter(or rogue/rogue prestige etc) prestige class combos.
Super_Troll
First Post
"IMHO, incanatrix is somewhat overbalanced, a problem that I'd fix by removing the 1st-level bonus metamagic feat. Instant Metamagic has already been fixed in errata, and Improved Metamagic just isn't that powerful for a 13th+ level wizard or 14th+ level sorcerer. The other abilities are nifty, but don't make up for the loss of familiar advancement or the initial burn feat."
Where is this errata you speak of? I look in the MoF Errata and don't see it.
Where is this errata you speak of? I look in the MoF Errata and don't see it.
Super_Troll
First Post
"...The other abilities are nifty, but don't make up for the loss of familiar advancement or the initial burn feat."
Is familiar advancement tied to Sor/Wiz levels only? I never noticed that before.
Is familiar advancement tied to Sor/Wiz levels only? I never noticed that before.
ruleslawyer
Registered User
Oni: Thank you for posting your objections to the Incanatrix PrC. That's what I meant by "rationale."
As to your points:
-IMHO, Iron Will is a burn feat for a class with a good Will save. But maybe that's just me.
-A sorc is only getting access to the Instant Metamagic ability twice per day, that too at 13th and 15th character level minimum, respectively. Is that really broken?
-Improved Metamagic is THE good ability for the class, and it barely "improves" anything at all, given how suboptimal a choice metamagicking is in general. The sorc especially gains little by this, since s/he has to waste a FRA regardless of the feat used or the level cost employed. I agree that the one big problem with this ability is its synergy with stackable Empower Spell, but then I don't think that feat should be stackable in general, especially since the problem comes up again in epic levels once Improved Metamagic is available as a feat.
-Yes, the class gets too many bonus feats. See my post above.
-Note that I agree that the class is overbalanced. It probably is the best arcane spellcaster PrC out there, largely because most of those PrCs are underpowered. The Arcane Trickster is better, the Fatespinner is probably better, and the Geomancer is more prone to serious abuse, but yes, the Incanatrix is seriously good. That's why I do agree with you that there are needed fixes to the class; I just a) don't think it's "one of the most broken PrCs I've ever seen" (pop open S&F, MotW, or OA to see a big grouping of those); nor b) do I welcome a response that has nothing constructive to say (your first post). Thanks for posting a well-thought-out response subsequently.
hammymchamham: ?
Super_Troll: From the MoF errata, pp.1-2:
And yes, familiar advancement is NOT granted by any PrCs unless expressly stated in the class description (for example, the alienist grants this).
As to your points:
-IMHO, Iron Will is a burn feat for a class with a good Will save. But maybe that's just me.
-A sorc is only getting access to the Instant Metamagic ability twice per day, that too at 13th and 15th character level minimum, respectively. Is that really broken?
-Improved Metamagic is THE good ability for the class, and it barely "improves" anything at all, given how suboptimal a choice metamagicking is in general. The sorc especially gains little by this, since s/he has to waste a FRA regardless of the feat used or the level cost employed. I agree that the one big problem with this ability is its synergy with stackable Empower Spell, but then I don't think that feat should be stackable in general, especially since the problem comes up again in epic levels once Improved Metamagic is available as a feat.
-Yes, the class gets too many bonus feats. See my post above.
-Note that I agree that the class is overbalanced. It probably is the best arcane spellcaster PrC out there, largely because most of those PrCs are underpowered. The Arcane Trickster is better, the Fatespinner is probably better, and the Geomancer is more prone to serious abuse, but yes, the Incanatrix is seriously good. That's why I do agree with you that there are needed fixes to the class; I just a) don't think it's "one of the most broken PrCs I've ever seen" (pop open S&F, MotW, or OA to see a big grouping of those); nor b) do I welcome a response that has nothing constructive to say (your first post). Thanks for posting a well-thought-out response subsequently.
hammymchamham: ?
Super_Troll: From the MoF errata, pp.1-2:
And yes, familiar advancement is NOT granted by any PrCs unless expressly stated in the class description (for example, the alienist grants this).
Oni
First Post
ruleslawyer said:
This ability really scares me, not for what it does for sorcerers, but what it can do for a wizard. There is a huge disparity between the benefits for a sorcerer and a wizard. If I were to rewrite this class I would replace particular gem with the spell secret power fo the Wu Jen, if I didn't drop it entirely.
there are a lot of other things I would change but I won't go into that now, maybe later.
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