MoF Incantatrix, wow

[Shard O'Glase]

Yeah immunty to death effects and level drain almost shuts down the school of necromancy, but sadly enough a simple protection from evil almost shuts down the enchantment school. Oh wait I'm actually charmed but it doesn't effect me while my proteciton from evil is up. Yeah like the enemy spellcaster is going to survive long enough to capitalize on that little detail.

Will saves are almost useless IMO, there just way to easy to circumvent. Still you can't always have proteciton from evil up, so iron will isn't useless. I'm not sure I'd qualify it as a burn feat, but it is fairly suboptimal for wiz/sor.

 

[Dash Dannigan]

See Ethereal makes the Blink spell non-fnctional, heh.

Yes, there are just too many "perks" for the Incant PrC, beyond ANY of the metamagic abilties.

LOL, gfunk, I worked up a Sorc6/Incant10/ArchMge4, gaaaaahhh wow. Pretty hardcore lol, I can just see the Sorcerer now:

"I can get a neat ability and all I have to do is loose a slot!? Muahahaha, I've got slots up the wazoooo! Fools! *cackle*"

However, the point about DCs remaining unchanged for a pumped metamagic evocation spell is quite valid. You can do a load of damage but is half as effective if the save is made. Kinda nerfs the point of metmagicing the spell up in the first place.

 

[Hypersmurf]

... but sadly enough a simple protection from evil almost shuts down the enchantment school.[/B]

Is it cut-and-dried that Charm Person, for example, represents "mental control over the creature"?

I thought PFE would protect you from Domination - direct control - but not from, say, Charm (influencing your attitude) or Lesser Geas (following instructions, not 'mental control').

To me, PFE prevents anything where the caster acts as a puppeteer.

-Hyp.

 

[ruleslawyer]

UNDERpowered? What? From where I sit, any PrC that grants +1 spellcaster level for each level of the PrC plus anything I would find useful is better than straight wizard or sorc. Screw the familiar, they can't take the nasty hits and are not that useful. Even if you keep going wiz or sorc, your familar doesn't gain that much. Scry on familiar? No thanks, I'll just buy the crystal ball for 42,000.

In response:

1) Most arcane spellcaster PrCs don't grant full +1 existing level spellcasting progression every level.

2) I actually tend to think that familiars are quite useful; the +2 Con from toad alone is better than any arcane caster PrC of which I can think.

3) I'd rather the wizard's bonus feats than pretty much any PrC ability.

4) The sorcerer does gain pretty much a straight power boost from any +1 level caster PrC. OTOH, the sorc doesn't have many feats or class skill points to play around with, and should sacrifice some of these to get into pretty much any worthwhile PrC.

Slightly off topic: how are you going to abuse Geomancer? A sorc/cleric with armor of command? I have seen and used far more abuses with Incantantrix than Geomancer. S&F wasn't broken, it brought up the fighters to the level of the tricked out mage or cleric. MotW? For what, Blighter, Oozemaster, and Windrider? I have seen more abuses from DotF, from items like armor of command and armor of speed, to prestiege domains like celerity, to templar granting weapon specialization, the only real reason to go with fighter.

The ability of the geomancer to combine spontaneous casting ability with other classes' casting ability is quite vicious. I'll post more on these shortly.

Oh, and I agree with you regarding DotF: I happen not to own it, but have perused it enough to be in accord. I CANNOT agree regarding S&F; the OotBI is better than practically any other PrC I can think of, and there are some silly abuses possible (duelist AC smacks, smacks, gladiator feinting smacks). MotW certainly has vicious stuff; build out a high-level windrider mount to see what I mean.

Since you say you've seen and used incanatrix abuses, I would like to see an actual hypothetical incanatrix abuse using something OTHER than stackable Empower. As I said, I agree that the class is overpowered, but the overpowering isn't beyond repair.

 

[Hypersmurf]

2) I actually tend to think that familiars are quite useful; the +2 Con from toad alone is better than any arcane caster PrC of which I can think.

That's a benefit that doesn't rely on continuing familiar progression, though. A sorcerer with a toad familiar doesn't lose that +2 Con by multiclassing - he loses the chance to gain things like "command other toads".

Edit - no, not even command other toads - thinking of Paladin's mount

-Hyp.

 

[Hygric]

The ability of the geomancer to combine spontaneous casting ability with other classes' casting ability is quite vicious. I'll post more on these shortly.

A geomancer can do that!?! Holy cammel droppings...

 

[Oni]

A geomancer can do that!?! Holy cammel droppings...

They have to prep all their spells as per the normal rules for whatever class they are prepping them for. They can't cast spells from other classes spontaneously because they are already prepped as something else. The only exception to the his is a clerics cures or inflicts because they allow you to trade in a spell to cast them spontaneously. Personally I don't see what is so bad about being able to convert arcane spells into cures or inflicts.

 

[LokiDR]

In response:

1) Most arcane spellcaster PrCs don't grant full +1 existing level spellcasting progression every level.

2) I actually tend to think that familiars are quite useful; the +2 Con from toad alone is better than any arcane caster PrC of which I can think.

3) I'd rather the wizard's bonus feats than pretty much any PrC ability.

4) The sorcerer does gain pretty much a straight power boost from any +1 level caster PrC. OTOH, the sorc doesn't have many feats or class skill points to play around with, and should sacrifice some of these to get into pretty much any worthwhile PrC.

1) You have a point. 9 to 5 from TaB, don't and do respectively, counting only those that improve your base spellcasting abilities. That fact has little to do with the fact that there are many PrCs that do.

2) What does leveling your base class have to do with the bonus you get at first level?

3) Two metamagic or item creation feats are better than all the following options:
*2 metamagic feats, improved familiar, DR 20/+1, electrical resist 20
*+5d6 sneak attack, impromptu sneak attack, and a good ref save
*5 metamagics that apply to one item type
*Spellpool and 2 metamagic feats
*Create greater undead and energy drain
and that is just Tome and Blood. I don't see a lack of decent PrC for arcane casters. There just happen to be a lot of crappier ones.

4) Just because sorcerors have problems getting in doesn't mean they don't gain a lot of benifit from them. Considering they give up very little by not going straight sorc, there should be costs.

I don't see this as a problem with the arcane types, I see it as a problem with PrCs. Most of the PrCs have marked advantage in their areas of expertise and not too much loss from the weak areas.

The ability of the geomancer to combine spontaneous casting ability with other classes' casting ability is quite vicious. I'll post more on these shortly.

Oh, and I agree with you regarding DotF: I happen not to own it, but have perused it enough to be in accord. I CANNOT agree regarding S&F; the OotBI is better than practically any other PrC I can think of, and there are some silly abuses possible (duelist AC smacks, smacks, gladiator feinting smacks). MotW certainly has vicious stuff; build out a high-level windrider mount to see what I mean.

Since you say you've seen and used incanatrix abuses, I would like to see an actual hypothetical incanatrix abuse using something OTHER than stackable Empower. As I said, I agree that the class is overpowered, but the overpowering isn't beyond repair.

Interesting idea on the Geomancer. I'll have to look closer at it.

Frankly, I think casters have a huge advantage in general. If I can just evoke you into oblivion while I have half a dozen buff spells that make it hard as hell for you to hurt me, it all comes down to caster in the end.

I will post notes on what abuses I have used Incantrix for a bit later. Staking empower is the best example though. I don't think it is beyond repair either. I do think it is a bit too good, but I think that a lot

 

[ruleslawyer]

LokiDR: Number of good points you raise regarding arcane PrCs. To which PrCs are you referring besides the arcane trickster and MotAO, BTW?

Also, keep in mind that those feat-vs.-feat equations aren't quite fair. Most PrCs do require suboptimal feats, after all.

Re: the toad - rather dumb on my part. The point was that a familiar isn't such a bad thing to have in general; being able to increase its powers and general survivability therefore are good things.

As for arcane PrCs in general: I agree that there are many that are just plain deadly; that was kinda my point re: the incanatrix not being particularly "broken" as these PrCs go. The problem, as I see it, is that either arcane PrCs are next to useless (those that do not offer +1 existing spellcasting progression) or almost certainly likely to be over-mighty (those that offer such progression). Even the core-rules loremaster, for instance, can be a much better path for either a wizard or sorcerer than going straight single-class.

 

[Hypersmurf]

LokiDR: Number of good points you raise regarding arcane PrCs. To which PrCs are you referring besides the arcane trickster and MotAO, BTW?

Alienist, Candle Caster, True Necromancer has full spellcasting progression.

Elemental Savant gets 9 levels of spellcasting progression.

-Hyp.