Monk a striker: Why? (Forked Thread: 3rd Party Poopers)

[pawsplay]

Boot to the head.

 

[Cadfan]

As a side effect, maybe. But there's no real incentive for the monster to stay where he is. Why not move closer to a target he's more interested in? It'll save him movement points later on.

Presumably the monster doesn't want to spend a round hobbling across the board and not attacking when there's a perfectly good monk to squash. Its the decision that most players would make in that circumstance. The incentive is getting to make an attack instead of not making an attack.

Whatever, I'm not going to argue it. I think its pretty clear that powers that force an enemy to hold still, adjacent to a melee character, and attack that melee character are Defender powers. If they aren't, there's no such thing as a Defender. I think this is clear enough that I do not need to defend it.

 

[Mokona]

Different monks for different styles works well:

I want the Monk to be a martial controller.

There is also room for a fighting style that is Ki Striker, Ki Defender, Ki Leader, and Ki Controller. The Ki Controller would probably be the fire-breathing monk type so different than the Monk martial controller with lots of throws and sweeping kicks.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Presumably the monster doesn't want to spend a round hobbling across the board and not attacking when there's a perfectly good monk to squash. Its the decision that most players would make in that circumstance. The incentive is getting to make an attack instead of not making an attack.

Whatever, I'm not going to argue it. I think its pretty clear that powers that force an enemy to hold still, adjacent to a melee character, and attack that melee character are Defender powers. If they aren't, there's no such thing as a Defender. I think this is clear enough that I do not need to defend it.

Actually, in a way a Controller is a Defender and vice versa, but as you see, the most important difference is that the Defender makes himself a target, the Controller tries to make no one a target.

Immobilize or Slow an enemy at range means making hard for him to attack anyone (if he's not using ranged attacks). Do the same in melee, and you're his next target.

There are also things defenders are worse at then controllers - targeting multiple enemies at range, for example. The Fighter has a few abilities that give him limited range (Come and Get It!), but it ends up with him being adjacent to anyone he hit. Again, making himself a target.

Defender and Controller similarity might be: It's a good idea to engage them. The difference is: It's easy to stay engaged with the Defender, but hard to engage the Controller. The Defender can survive being engaged, the Controller cannot.
But this is very simple, and mostly applies to Fighter/Wizard as our archetypes for defender and controller. A Swordmage already acts differently - he will often try to get away from the opponent, and doesn't really want to be engaged.

---

A Striker that deals massive damage to have an opponent stop attacking a Controller might be "defending" him, but that doesn't mean a Striker is a Defender. He has not the hit points to keep "drawing aggro". That's exactly what happened if you let a Monk Full Attack in 3E - suddenly he becomes annyoing (well, if he manages to hit with his Flury of Misses), and his enemy might just drop him with his own full attack - or at least force him to run away. He can buy you some time, but he cannot sustain this position.

 

[Ydars]

I don't know about the monk but it would be possible for a Ki character to be a controller via mundane effects if you go with the Wushu that seems to prevade many 4E powers.

How about clouds of shurikens and darts to slow enemies, or mini-caltrops, making dangerous ground. Poison might be a viable power-up. Ninja type flash pellets could also be used to daze, blind or stun enemies.

Plus you could have some kind of arrow cutting/ deflecting that rebounds enemy missile attacks back onto them or their allies.

 

[Klaus]

After watching Tai Lung (Kung Fu Panda's villain) take on 1000 rhino guards to escae prison, I'm thinking a Martial Controller is very possible.

 

[Felon]

All doable, but not a controller if you're doing them in melee range.

If you inflict status effects at melee range, then like 90% of the time the upshot of what you're doing is that you're locking an opponent in place and forcing it to fight you. Making you a defender.

Fortunately, character design is not compelled to adhere to such absolutes. Melee-range control effects can just make for a tougher version of a controller, just like a barbarian seems to be a toughened-up striker because he can't play "keep away" like other strikers. Wizards don't have melee attacks, but they're jam-packed with close attacks that leave them a step or two away from aggro--and the majority of their attacks are soft controls like raw damage, not hard controls of the "hold still" variety. From the previews shown, druids seem to have plenty of melee control effects in their beast shapes.

Whatever, I'm not going to argue it. I think its pretty clear that powers that force an enemy to hold still, adjacent to a melee character, and attack that melee character are Defender powers. If they aren't, there's no such thing as a Defender. I think this is clear enough that I do not need to defend it.

Not to put too fine a head on things, but here's the reality check: if you're unwilling to entertain discussion, then you oughtn't stand up and start telling people what's what. You asserted a criterion of range on controller powers that doesn't seem to be born out by the extant data, and when folks try to point that out, you summarily announce you don't want to talk about it.

There are some some flaws in your premise that disrupt your notions of unassailability. Not all control effects make enemies "hold still", and not all monsters are impelled to attack someone just because they're within melee range. There's a lot more to both controlling and defending than you're allowing for.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

I don't know about the monk but it would be possible for a Ki character to be a controller via mundane effects if you go with the Wushu that seems to prevade many 4E powers.

How about clouds of shurikens and darts to slow enemies, or mini-caltrops, making dangerous ground. Poison might be a viable power-up. Ninja type flash pellets could also be used to daze, blind or stun enemies.

Plus you could have some kind of arrow cutting/ deflecting that rebounds enemy missile attacks back onto them or their allies.

I'm not sure if this is what the Monk is going to be, but it's the sort of character I'd love to play. Full on wushu magic power wackiness with lightning fists, 20 feet jumps, and ki blasts slapping people about.

Ryu from Streetfighter, but more so, is what I'm getting at.

 

[Felon]

I don't know about the monk but it would be possible for a Ki character to be a controller via mundane effects if you go with the Wushu that seems to prevade many 4E powers.

How about clouds of shurikens and darts to slow enemies, or mini-caltrops, making dangerous ground. Poison might be a viable power-up. Ninja type flash pellets could also be used to daze, blind or stun enemies.

That's actually how I wish the rogue would have been handled; a martial master of dirty tricks and traps that harass and hinder the enemy.

 

[Ydars]

Oh I agree Felon; I am not that fond of the Rogue as it stands. I like my characters more mobile and away from being hit.