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Monk and Stoneskin

DocMoriartty said:
A dragon or Balor inside an anti-magic field can now be killed by 100 guys with pocket knives as the criticals pile up. That same dragon or Balor outside the field would wipe the field of 10 times that many men.

We'll assume 100 "guys" mean 20th level fighters and they can all fit somehow around the Balor without worrying about stacking/occoupying the same space, problems. :) We will also assume "pocket kives" mean Longswords. :)

They autohit each round for each of their iterative attacks for Max Damage (way generous I know!) :D

Now here's where it stops being generous, :( only 10 of the "Guys" hit with a 20 on their first attacks, and only 5 roll the +10 to do the crit damage. Now they are doing a whoppin total of 2d8+8 = 24 damage, 28 if they grip the Longsword with both hands. DR 30/+3 Balor Laughs :P The same gets applied for each of the iterative attacks. :eek: Balor Laughs Again :D

You Do Realize DR 30/+3 works for each hit and not per round.

Those random criticals would add up quickly. 100 guys with bows will guaruntee that a few will crit and hit and a few of those will crit and confirm every round. Without DR that damage adds up. With DR none of it gets to actually remove hitpoints and the dragon or balor minces the army. This does not even begin to take into account the loss of magic ability for the dragon or balor while in the field.

Do you know your 2 paragraphs contradict each other? Above you say you can kill the Balor with Pocket knives and 100 guys and now you are saying you can't which side are you talking about. :confused:

Metalsmith
 

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A dragon or Balor inside an anti-magic field can now be killed by 100 guys with pocket knives as the criticals pile up. That same dragon or Balor outside the field would wipe the field of 10 times that many men.
AMF only has a 10' radius. You couldn't fit 100 guys into that area. :p

Seriously though, you're right. Dragons, demons, and other high-powered baddies are inherently magical creatures. Their power, and even their existence, depends on magic. Take away the magic, and a dragon is just a very big, very smart lizard. In a dead magic zone, it could be overwhelmed by an army of ordinary fighters; that's why dragons don't hang out in dead magic zones.

Edited to add: You could say the same thing about an archmage. An epic-level spellcaster could probably take on a few hundred commoners without much trouble, but if you remove all his magic, the mob will tear him apart.
 

Metalsmith, I think you're missing the point. If DR is a supernatural ability, it doesn't work at all inside an AMF. So you no longer need magic weapons to harm the Balor...
 


AuraSeer said:
Metalsmith, I think you're missing the point. If DR is a supernatural ability, it doesn't work at all inside an AMF. So you no longer need magic weapons to harm the Balor...

Please read up 7 posts.
My original response was to the statement "I would never have made it that a Dragon or worse yet a Balor looses its DR in an Antimagic Field. Which I thought to mean the Author of the post (Doc Moriartty) meant he disaproved and thought they should retain their DR. Which prompted my question if that was the case what could kill the Balor?

Looks like it could have been a misunderstanding on both our parts


Metalsmith
 
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You missed my point. I I was giving an example of why I thought DR should not go away in anti-magic. Basically because once a creature loses its DR it can quickly be taken down by mass attacks by waves of the weakest foes. Give those foes missle weapons and the slaughter of the creature is even quicker.



Metalsmith said:


Please read up 7 posts.
My original response was to the statement "I would never have made it that a Dragon or worse yet a Balor looses its DR in an Antimagic Field. Which I thought to mean the Author of the post (Doc Moriartty) meant he disaproved and thought they should retain their DR. Which prompted my question if that was the case what could kill the Balor?

Looks like it could have been a misunderstanding on both our parts


Metalsmith
 

DocMoriartty said:
I double checked and you are correct. This means that DR can be supressed by an anti-magic field. Wow that sure made Beholders even more powerful and useful as allies. I would have never made it that a Dragon or worse a Balor loses its DR the instant it walks into an anti-magic field.

Yes, Anti-Magic Field (or ray in the case of Beholders) is extremely nasty.

However, there are several Balor properties that are not affected by Anti-Magic:

Entangle
Death Throes
Resistance 20 Cold
Resistance 20 Fire
Resistance 20 Acid
Immune Poison
Immune Electricity
AC
Spell Resistance
Most melee capabilities (except magic weapon, i.e. vorpal and +5)
Fly 90 feet

So yes, a Beholder will lower the offensive abilities of a Balor somewhat, but it will not lower its defenses that much (except DR and any spells). But at the same time, most attacks by the Beholder's allies will also be negated or greatly reduced in power.

Plus, Balors do not Fly with magic. It is a natural ability. So, whenever it wanted to, the Balor could Fly to the Beholder (speed 90 vs. speed 20) and chop him up, entangling it in his whip, etc.

To me, I would prefer to NOT have a Beholder helping since the Balor would first wipe through most of the Beholder’s allies, then the Beholder itself.

Ditto for Dragons. The allies can hardly hurt the Dragon, the Dragon can waste through the allies and the Beholder. Caveat on this, the anti-magic ray would rarely cover the entire dragon, so allies might be able to attack an unaffected flank with weapons and/or spells.

Anti-Magic Field has some limited uses in combat, but most of the time, there are other spells or abilities which work better against monsters. Against humans or humanoids, Anti-Magic Field (or ray) is a horror since humanoids rarely have natural abilities or Exceptional Abilities worth losing other magical abilities over.

So, against humanoids, Beholders are nasty. Against Balors and other multi-defense/offense magical monsters, they tend to help more than they harm.
 

I disagree, mostly because once you lose DR you guanruntee that every hit is going to do damage.

So if 100 archers fire then 5 on average will hit and do damage. 5D8 per round with the ocassional critical is going to run through the hitpoints of a balor pretty fast.
 

Why would you need to be standing next to the dragon or Balor anyways, I'd have a gaggle of Archers standing by ready to lay a volley into the dragon. . That or a bunch of Halfling Lashers, Right DM?
 

DocMoriartty said:
I disagree, mostly because once you lose DR you guanruntee that every hit is going to do damage.

So if 100 archers fire then 5 on average will hit and do damage. 5D8 per round with the ocassional critical is going to run through the hitpoints of a balor pretty fast.

Assuming you have a large enough area where 100 archers can attack, what stops the Balor from flying up “behind the Beholder“ or to any area the ray is not targeting (many elements of the game does not have facing, but a ray is not one of them), teleporting away, summoning in a bunch more Tanar’ri, and teleporting back and wiping out the archers?

The cone merely has a range of 150 feet, so worse case scenario is that the Balor flies away 360 feet on round one (forcing many of the archers to be at even more minuses to hit) and teleports away on the next round.

DR is just one of many defenses that a Balor has.

Let’s look at AC. AC 30 means that in order to have more than a 5% chance of hitting, the archers have to be +11 or more to hit. Typically, you are talking about 7th or higher level archers here. And, one hundred of them. With lower level archers, 5 archers will hit per round for an average of less then 20 hit points per round (100 attacks per round where 5% hit). So, you minimally need two attacks per round or more to do any real damage in a single round. I can guarantee that any Balor that I run would easily avoid the ray, and wipe up on any such tactics.

If you are going to throw 100 archers at a Balor, you might as well forget the Beholder and just make it 100 5th level archers with +5 arrows. Your chances to hit and the amount of damage per hit would be a lot more.

You cannot just look at DR and say “Hey, 100 archers could take this guy out.” Unless the Beholder wins initiative and all of the archers go next, and they do 110 hit points basically in a single round, the Balor should typically escape and win.

Balors do have an intelligence of 20 after all. I assume that the Anti-Magic ray does not lower its intelligence, does it? :)

But, even if you had 650 1st level archers and one Beholder and won the combat in a surprise round, it wouldn’t matter. An ambush is an ambush. You can make up any ambush you want and key it towards the defenses of the opponent. For example, 300 1st level archers with one +5 arrow each should on average win. Will that scenario actually occur in my game? Well, it’s about as likely as 650 1st level archers and a Beholder.

Quite frankly, unless you create bizarre meta-gaming ambush situations, Beholders are jokes compared to Balors. Yes, the Anti-Magic Ray could point out a potential weakness for a single round, but that’s all it does. If you let 650 archers and a Beholder do that tactic, then you really are meta-gaming anyway since the Beholder and his allies would not really KNOW that a Balor has 110 hit points and that it would take 650 archers to take him out.

In any reasonable ambush (i.e. the Beholder and friends do not know exactly what a Balor can do and how many hit points it has), the archer trick would typically fail. Instead, hitting the Balor with a higher level group of attackers with the Beholder using a Readied action to Anti-Magic Ray any offensive spell casting by the Balor is more “realistic”. Even so, a Balor should typically win if the attackers are not powerful enough to win straight up without the Beholder if the DM is running him intelligently.
 

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