D&D 5E Monk Flurry + Deadly Strike combo?

[UngeheuerLich]

i would say: add a bonus from deadly strike overrides flurry´s "add no bonus".

 

[eprieur]

I just did the math, I know some people have done them on the other site but here are my numbers. The only thing I'm still not 100% satisfied is that right now for the fighter using deadly strike the formula assume that you roll both attack at the same time and if one of them crit you apply the DS to the one that crit but this boost the fighter dps by a very small number (like 0.3).

Human fighter with a D12 2-h vs human monk using flurry vs AC 15.
Lvl;Monk DPS;Figther DPS;Diff
1;7.4;9.15;1.75
2;8.1;9.85;1.75
3;8.45;10.025;1.58
4;12.1;13.3;1.2
5;12.625;13.475;0.85
6;12.625;23.3925;10.77
7;13.15;23.7425;10.59
8;15.35;27.0975;11.75
9;16.75;28.89;12.14
10;23.75;36.415;12.67

At level 5 the monk is holding his own but then at level 6 the fighter get his extra attack and the monk become pretty much. The thing I mentionned above would help a bit (I'll check if I can fix that later today).

As far as the 'balance' is concerned I would consider the current monk to be unplayable versus the fighter starting at level 6. You still have a few cool powers including the one where you can climb walls and walk on water but remember that the rounds you do that, your DPS is more then while the fighter just hack away, parrying, protecting, being awsome, etc.

The ki heal is so small and bad that overall a fighter with a bit more con then a monk (normal since monk have to have dex/wis) will heal himself more with hit dices healing in short rest then a monk with his ki + hit dices.

It feels that they are so afraid of creating something good and nerf it later that they overbalance in the category.

 

[fjw70]

I am okay with no one competing with the fighter as a pure damage dealer. The Monk has more tricks like throwing, walking on walls, and water, stunning, and self-healing, and will probably have even more tricks as he is fleshed out.

I like FoB since is sort of combines DS and Whirlwind attack since the blows can attack a single target or different targets.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I think this is one of the positives of doing an open playtest... that already eagle-eyed players are looking at the wording of abilities and what they mean and how they apply. So that WotC can realize what exactly was the intended way of how these things should or shouldn't combine... and can do their editing passes later on to fix these loopholes that will get pointed out.

Is FoB's "no bonuses" meant to be just STR or DEX mod and/or magic item bonus related? Then Deadly Strike perhaps need to be touched up to not call their damage a "bonus" so that it is clear it can apply. But if not... if FoB's damage is strictly the Expertise Die... then perhaps that needs to be made more explicit too.

This kind of continual light hammering on the terminology can only help keep things clearer as the game goes through its many iterations over the next couple years.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

I think this is one of the positives of doing an open playtest... that already eagle-eyed players are looking at the wording of abilities and what they mean and how they apply. So that WotC can realize what exactly was the intended way of how these things should or shouldn't combine... and can do their editing passes later on to fix these loopholes that will get pointed out.

Is FoB's "no bonuses" meant to be just STR or DEX mod and/or magic item bonus related? Then Deadly Strike perhaps need to be touched up to not call their damage a "bonus" so that it is clear it can apply. But if not... if FoB's damage is strictly the Expertise Die... then perhaps that needs to be made more explicit too.

This kind of continual light hammering on the terminology can only help keep things clearer as the game goes through its many iterations over the next couple years.

I agree on principle, but I think there's another pressure at hand here: WOTC should ALSO do their best to avoid situations where rules-lawyery distinctions like this need to be made.

In this case, monks all get Flurry of Blows by default, which does about the same thing for them as Deadly Strike does for the fighter (lets them essentially add their expertise dice to damage). It also performs the primary function of Whirlwind Attack (letting the monk do light damage against multiple adjacent targets). There are some potential benefits to WA and DS in combination with or in place of FOB, but they're complex and depend on a very careful parsing of the rules... and, I'd argue, don't add much to the flavor of the class or those maneuvers. So IMHO monks should NOT have access to Whirlwind Attack or Deadly Strike; the presence of those options is confusing to new players and the application of them is confusing even to players with a good deal of system mastery.

It's probably not a bad thing that they've included the option in this playtest, to spur more careful discussion and rules distinctions... but I hope in the final product the options available to each class are clear and distinct.

 

[Larrin]

Food for thought (albeit the conversation has moved on) with regards to Dealy Strike with unarmed attacks for _any_ class: 'unarmed strike' is on the weapons table, it is described as a group in the weapons group section, and no where does it make any exception that i can find calling it not a weapon. It seems you can 'wield' unarmed strike just like you can wield a dagger, and are considered armed. It is a basic, one handed, weapon.

By this logic, wizards are not proficient with unarmed strikes, and monks would not be, except for the 'way of the fist' class feature. All else are, at the moment.

 

[eprieur]

I think deadly strike is there for the non unarmed options. Because I mean without deadly strike, and since flurry of blows is unarmed only, you would never be able to use a staff or some of the other weapons with any efficienty.

I haven't look at the item but if you play the playtest right now, you will notice that monks get nearly jack and in term of upgrade while the fighter just keep getting more dominant.

Once you factor in the dwarf fighter (2D6) who finaly got his belt of giant strenght with his +1 weapons, the fighter will do probably double the damage of the monk (41 vs 25 or so).