Monk flying as an Eagle

Alter Self

I've done a little more research in the rules since I first posted. The druid Wildshape ability references the Polymorph spell. The Polymorph spell references the Alter Self spell. Alter Self says:

"You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, exept for those requiring a body part that the new form dows not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack). You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels (such as a barbarian's rage ability), but you lose any from your normal from that are not derived from class levels (such as a dragon's frightful presence ability)."

And furthermore:

"You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons, racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities.

Fast Movement is listed as an extraordinary ability. Also, the idea behind a monk's abilities is a mastery of Ki. I wouldn't imagine that the Monk loses his mastery of Ki just because he changes forms.

Ultimately, with the character I have, it equates to a 6 Mph faster flight speed.

Thanx for all the input,

Sparxmith
 

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mmu1 said:
What exactly is the problematic or unbalanced part, here?

Most of the time, all that extra speed is good for is a)Taking the long way around avoiding the occasional AOO and b)Getting separated from the party and the snot pounded out of you. I've yet to be in a game in which someone getting an extra 10' of speed while climbing, swimming or flying was an issue.

The problematic part is - does each modus of movement increase speed by 10' (which makes a tremendous and disproportionate difference say for climb 15' which suddenly becomes climb 25' - or for monks even even 35' or 45' - ) or just by half/proportionate numeric amount.... Or becomes very interesting if you somehow have access to the "burrow" mode of movement.

And - we have a lot of situations where an extra 10' move climbing or swimming makes a massive difference in our swashbuckling campaign.
Also - with a monk in "mage-hunter" mode it does become very important when it comes to the question if he actually manages to end up right next to the mage to beat the sh** out of him or not. Say, when wildshaped, flying over to a spot right next or behind your victim and change back to monk _after_ landing. Works very nicely if invisible - which is a common tactic IMC (potions of invis are not really _that_ expensive in the first place ). Or if you have a druid charging some unfortunate sod in cheetah form (which allows a x10 speed burst - giving you an extra 100' covered )

darklone said:
It does not stack with haste, right? Both are enhancement bonuses.

Enhancement bonus may result from very different effects, but still do not stack with each other. I find it illuminating that all purely movement-increasing spells I could find (Longstrider, Expeditious Retreat ), were enhancements, and specificially limited to landspeed, excluding all other modes of movement, or did not affect tactical speed at all (Wind at the Back) .
Except for "Haste" - which does more than just increase tactical speed inthe first place - it adds to dodge, attack and reflex saves, plus giving an extra attack under the right circumstances. Sorry, that doesn't sound like a simple movement speed increase gained over several levels to me.,
BTW - a druid worried about an extra 10' fly speed (6 mph ) to get somewhere else in a hurry should consider using "Wind at the Back" (MoF) - which simply doubles his overland speed while traveling (how fast does an eagle go while flying - 90' ? Well, make that 180' for calculating distance covered ). That might actually help him get somewhere fast.

Just my 2 cents
 
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sparxmith said:
I've done a little more research in the rules since I first posted. The druid Wildshape ability references the Polymorph spell. The Polymorph spell references the Alter Self spell. Alter Self says:

"You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, exept for those requiring a body part that the new form dows not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack). You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels (such as a barbarian's rage ability), but you lose any from your normal from that are not derived from class levels (such as a dragon's frightful presence ability)."

And furthermore:

"You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons, racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities.

Fast Movement is listed as an extraordinary ability. Also, the idea behind a monk's abilities is a mastery of Ki. I wouldn't imagine that the Monk loses his mastery of Ki just because he changes forms.

Ultimately, with the character I have, it equates to a 6 Mph faster flight speed.

Thanx for all the input,

Sparxmith

Well, Flurry of Blows is an (Ex) Ability, too. Still you cannot use it with any form of natural weapon, even if you retain the ability. And "Fast Movement" makes _no_ mention of "Ki"-use (actually very few abilities of the monk are "Ki" powered besides his strikes ). Which - IMHO - should mean - it is not powered by anything else but by the monk's excellent physical shape , strength of frame and muscular tone - please take note, that "Fast Movement" is very much dependent on the monk's strength and the directly related carrying capacity. Drain/lower the strength and out of the windows goes the fast movement - while nothing much happens to his ability to flurry, dodge or other monkish stunts.
In contrast "Ki" abilities can be used while encumbered, while "Fast Movement" cannot. "Ki" Abilities are (Su) without fail, too. And frankly, most birds lack the strong legs required for rapid ground-based movement (Ostriches etc. are excepted ).

Or, as an argument in a rather circumvential way - a Beholder has the (Ex) ability to fly, because his body is naturally buoyant (as stated in his description, ref. MM I ). So according to your argument, he would still be able to fly, because his ability to do so is extraordinary (Ex) if he was polymorphed or wildshaped into an elephant, as he retains the extraordinary qualities ? After all he is not missing a body part needed for his ability to fly, he is still in the same body, which is just shaped differently.... Sounds absurd, right ? IMHO, the same applies to a wildshaped monk - his ability to cover ground fast is very much dependent on his fitness and natural means of propulsion, not any magical boost (it is (Ex) after all ), even if his new form has tow (short) legs and two arms/wings...
And - after all, the general "brokenness of "Wild Shape" tied to "Polymorph" and the possible absurd results are too well known already. Not a good foundation to build an argument on in the first place.
 
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uzagi_akimbo said:
Well, Flurry of Blows is an (Ex) Ability, too. Still you cannot use it with any form of natural weapon, ...
A druid monk CAN wildshape into animal form and use Flurry of Blows. He couldn't use the natural weapons, but what keeps him from using unarmed strikes (as animal with the respective size mod to the monks attacks) to use Flurry? Nothing.
 

Darklone said:
A druid monk CAN wildshape into animal form and use Flurry of Blows. He couldn't use the natural weapons, but what keeps him from using unarmed strikes (as animal with the respective size mod to the monks attacks) to use Flurry? Nothing.

lol, I am trying to imagine an eagle flurry of blowing with his wings, beak or claws ! Admittedly, that is a bad example, but I have equal difficulty for most non-predators. Fancy a punching lion or kick-boxing orang-utan ? Now at least we know where all those fancy kung-fu styles get their names from, hehe :D :D :D
Flurry of blows to me is Jackie Chan/Bruce Lee/Jet Li laying into an opponent at close range, attacking with every available body part, be it knees, elbows, fists, head-butting or high-kicking, hitting with whatever end of the weapon comes in handy etc. No way you average wolf is going to fight like that...... I mean, without even resorting to its natural weaponry like teeth or claws. And how many animals fight with simple slams - which might be the closest an animal gets to "unarmed combat" ?
 
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uzagi_akimbo said:
lol, I am trying to imagine an eagle flurry of blowing with his wings, beak or claws ! Admittedly, that is a bad example, but I have equal difficulty for most non-predators. Fancy a punching lion or kick-boxing orang-utan ? Now at least we know where all those fancy kung-fu styles get their names from, hehe :D :D :D
You should have seen the silly face I made when our druid with Animal growth changed in to a giant octopus and asked about stunning tentacle...

Jump kicks from him in bear form took some time to get used to as well.
 

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