Because I thought it was obvious. It was the central arguement the last time I had this debate a month ago on another list.
Really? Let's take a look at what you said on Feb. 7, 2004:
Flurry of Blows gives you an extra attack. You can make a grapple check in place of an attack. Therefore you can use the extra attack from flurry of blows to make a grapple check.
And earlier today:
And if you could flurry of blows to make grapple checks, the attack penatly from flurry of blows would not apply to the grapple checks, which would give low level monks a free extra grapple at no penalty. That's part of why I changed my mind about using a flurry of blows to grapple.
Interesting. How do you go about calculating a month?
Nope. Flurry is specifically restricted to unarmed strikes, while Disarm, Trip, and Grapple are special attacks that happen to be unarmed attacks. Disarm is the only one that refers to using an unarmed strike, and that is only as a weapon equivalent.
Well; you'll have to show me why I can't make a disarm attempt with a nunchaku in a Flurry.
Stop taking a sentence out of context and ignoring the rest of the section. A flurry does not just grant an extra attack. It specifically grants an extra unarmed strike/monk weapon attack (and only an unarmed strike/monk weapon attack)
No; it grants a full attack and merely restricts the weapons that you may use to make a full attack.
I can certainly use a monk weapon to make a Trip or Disarm attempt; I can certainly use an unarmed strike to make a Disarm attempt.
I'm pretty sure that I can use unarmed strike to make a Trip attempt, because the idea that one can't use an unarmed melee weapon to make an unarmed touch attack strikes me as ridiculous.
The only question is whether Grapples are substitutable for unarmed strikes.
This arguement was already advanced by me and disproved by Hypersmurf. Go back and review the thread if you can't keep up.
Hypersmurf, responding to my question on the use of Disarm in a Flurry, in this thread, Feb. 15, 2004:
First, I want to ask if you think that it's legitimate to make, in a Flurry of Blows, Disarm attempts and Trip attacks with special monk weapons (Disarms with nunchaku, Trips with a quarterstaff, for example), and Disarms and Trips with an unarmed strike?
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Disarm - yes. The opposed attack rolls are made "with your respective weapons", so WF: Kama or WF: Unarmed Strike would apply.
Let's take another look at what you just said:
A flurry does not just grant an extra attack. It specifically grants an extra unarmed strike/monk weapon attack (and only an unarmed strike/monk weapon attack), if you read the entire section.
This arguement was already advanced by me and disproved by Hypersmurf. Go back and review the thread if you can't keep up.
I want you to tell me again that Hypersmurf has shown in this thread that we can't make Disarm attemps with a Flurry, because the attacks that it grants are not full attacks. I want you to tell me that, and then I want you to suggest to me that I should go back and read the thread.
Bad logic there. It's not an attack. It replaces the attack, and since it's not an attack it doesn't use any attack specific modifiers. It only uses grapple specific modifiers
Quote to me the line that says that only grapple-specific modifiers apply to grapple checks.
that's how I thought it worked originally, until I read the rules more closely
You mean, on this thread, on Feb. 7th?
Because all the rules I've seen indicate that Unarmed Strike and Grapple are both subsets of "Unarmed Attack"; as indicated in the combat and equipment sections of the PHB.
Grapple appears under neither of those sections. Grapple does not appear on the Table:
Unarmed Attacks
Gauntlet 2 gp 1d2 1d3 x2 — 1 lb. Bludgeoning
Unarmed strike — 1d23 1d33 x2 — —
Nor does it appear in the individual entries:
Glaive: A glaive has reach. You can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe.
Guisarme: A guisarme has reach. You can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe.
You can also use it to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the guisarme to avoid being tripped.
Nor does it appear in the Unarmed Attacks section:
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.
An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed.
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)
Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character’s unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of damage, while a Large character’s unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).
Dealing Lethal Damage: You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike without taking a penalty on the attack roll.
Let's check what you said again:
Because all the rules I've seen indicate that Unarmed Strike and Grapple are both subsets of "Unarmed Attack"; as indicated in the combat and equipment sections of the PHB.
Nope; you are utterly and completely wrong.
In fact, it is never specified that Grapple is always an unarmed attack:
Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll.
See how it doesn't say 'unarmed' there. It never says anywhere in the grapple text that the maneuver must be made unarmed.
